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Free will or Election?
We choose
64%
 64%  [ 11 ]
God chooses
23%
 23%  [ 4 ]
huh?
11%
 11%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 17

Author Message
Ruth





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:20 pm    Post subject: Free Will vs Election Reply with quote

The evolution thread is getting a bit stale.
Since there seem to be a number of my fellow believers out there, just wondering if anyone wanted to share their views on free will and/or election.

Edit @8:40 my time
No takers huh?
Boo...
mrsocko





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

God Chooses. Everyone goes to heaven. Jesus died for the sins of all mankind. Every knee shall bow every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. Sounds like a confession of faith to me.


Ruth, in one of your previous posts did you say that you received education at a divinity school.
Ruth





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No.
I did not.
We were talking about the Divinity School at Mac
My background is in Comp Sci. I have a MSc
But I did take some religious studies courses (and hebrew) for fun. But I don't really remember any hebrew except the shma (sp?) and the first line of Genesis.

Everyone goes to heaven?
As in, no one goes to hell?
mrsocko





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no religious training at all but have sat on the board of a Vineyard Church and preached a few times. I have read alot about the history of the Bible and was hoping you might shed some light on the translations thru the years. i have read that when the King Jimmy bible was produced it was met with opposition by some religious scholars for the way the word eternity was translated.

In the Gospels Jesus said that anyone who blasphemied the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven in this age or the age to come. The term translated in this age or the age to come is everywhere else in the king James translated eternity. The ancients at the time of Jesus supposedly looked at Time as having a beginning and an ending and not going on for eternity.They thought of time as being composed of ages that end. When Jesus says he is the Alpa and the Omega that is what he is referring to. The begining and the end of time. People may go to hell(I'm not convinced of this) but they will not stay there forever only an age. God created time he is is not bound by it. This concept of God being outside of time and time having an ending reconciles the contraditory scriptures that talk of people going to hell for eternity and all people going to heaven
Quote:
Every knee shall bow every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Riley W





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko - EVERYONE goes to Heaven?

NOBODY goes to HELL?

Sorry we will have to agree to disagree their.

God gave free will and choice to all man to accept Jesus Christ as their savior or not.

If they did God will grant them into the gates of Heaven. If they didn't Satan will clasp them into the pitts of Hell.

God allowed Lucifer - a fallen angel - to fall from grace and make his evil kingdom.

Its gives a free choices and will to all man.

I strongly believe in the concept of Hell/Heaven.

And before I vote in the poll - I am confused.

Please explain the poll question better.
urbanmonk





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Ephesians 1:4 it says that God choose us before the foundations of the world. Some people I know believe that everything is predetermined and site this verse, among others, as an indication of this. I disagree, why would he also be patient with us, ”not wanting anyone to perish” (2 Peter) or stand at the door and knock (Rev 3:20) if our salvation was predetermined?
God of coarse knows our fate but that’s not the same as determining our fate.
He chose all of Adams sons (and daughters) before the foundation of the world.
Sin was not meant to be part of our world and hell was not made for us, but because of our sin we’re separated from God and unless we accept the bridge God has provided back to him were stuck on the wrong side of the gulf and doomed to suffer the same fate as satan and his minions (who hell was intended for). God and sin are incompatible. I don’t believe God is capable of changing things when it comes to sin, only we are.
Riley W





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

urbanmonk wrote:

Sin was not meant to be part of our world and hell was not made for us, but because of our sin we’re separated from God and unless we accept the bridge God has provided back to him were stuck on the wrong side of the gulf and doomed to suffer the same fate as satan and his minions (who hell was intended for). God and sin are incompatible. I don’t believe God is capable of changing things when it comes to sin, only we are.


Perfect. EXACTLY my stance.

God didn't bring sin into the world, but he gave free will and choice to man, and they sinned in the beginning.

God lets us redeem ourselves through Jesus because he cared that much.

Bravo, urbanmonk, you explained my stance perfectly.
Ruth





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
I have no religious training at all but have sat on the board of a Vineyard Church

Ah.
Makes sense.

Quote:
People may go to hell(I'm not convinced of this) but they will not stay there forever only an age. God created time he is is not bound by it. This concept of God being outside of time and time having an ending reconciles the contraditory scriptures that talk of people going to hell for eternity and all people going to heaven

Scripture doesn't say that.
Where did you get this from?

Quote:
Every knee shall bow every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

That is not the same as a confession of faith at all.

westmanguy, based on your statement of
Quote:
God gave free will and choice to all man to accept Jesus Christ as their savior or not.

your answer is "we choose"
My guess is you probably don't believe in predestination or election then.

Quote:
I don’t believe God is capable of changing things when it comes to sin, only we are.

Yikes!
So, you don't believe in an omnipotent God?
Seriously?
FascistLibertarian





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If there is no free will then no one is responsible for their actions.
Since this seems to me to be false I must be for free will.
urbanmonk





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yikes!
I'm assuming you voted 'election' :~)
Quote:
So, you don't believe in an omnipotent God?
Of coarse I believe in an omnipotent God! (I'll explain later when I have a little more time)
Quote:
Seriously?
Very!
Ruth





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FascistLibertarian wrote:
If there is no free will then no one is responsible for their actions.

No.
But, that is a frequent mistake made with the idea of election.
We're talking specifically as it relates to the issue of salvation... although in hindsight I probably should have specified that.

urbanmonk, yes I voted election.
But, I admit, I grew up largely under the influence of "free will."
Still, you were the one that used the words "I don't believe God is capable..." Being incapable of doing something implies that He would not be omnipotent... able to do everything.
Riley W





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I get the question now.

We Choose.

God loves each and everyone of us SOOO much. So much he gave his only begotten son to die on the cross for our sins to give is a chance to come to Heaven one day.

I believe God is devastated when one of his children goes to Hell.

We choose, election.

Thats my belief.
Ruth





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok westmanguy
So
do you believe we are born in sin?
urbanmonk





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Still, you were the one that used the words "I don't believe God is capable..." Being incapable of doing something implies that He would not be omnipotent... able to do everything.


God cannot lie, there are many things God cannot do. This does not mean he is not omnipotent, he could change his rules I suppose. When it comes to sin Gods hands are tied (so to speak) It took considerable compassion and love for him to make a way for us to overcome the mess we collectively find ourselves in.
Sorry this probably doesn't explain my position properly, I'll try to respond with more detail when time permits.
Good topic by the way...
Riley W





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ruth wrote:
Ok westmanguy
So
do you believe we are born in sin?


No. All babies are born innocent and without sin.

Once the mind and conscious develops every person becomes a sinner.

Its our CHOICE (or election) to choose to accept Jesus Christ as our savior, and goto Heaven, or deny Jesus, and defacto choose Hell.
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Free Will vs Election

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