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Free will or Election?
We choose
64%
 64%  [ 11 ]
God chooses
23%
 23%  [ 4 ]
huh?
11%
 11%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 17

Author Message
truth4freedom





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ruth wrote:
Wow.
That is probably the most warped interpretation of that verse I have ever heard. You have selected a single verse without reference to the context at all.
1 Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2 to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men. 3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone. 9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11 You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
The context of the passage is doing good, obedience to authority and our sin nature. The controversies to which Paul is referring are not theological in nature at all. When it comes to theological discussions we are, as Jude puts it to contend for the faith, to see that it is not destroyed by those in error.
3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
Incidentally, it is more than a little self-serving of you to state your position and declare all others as following Satan and his doctrine b/c their position is not yours. The discussion of free will verses election is a crucial one, not even remotely foolish, since it has profound implications for how we as Christians understand our position. It is no accident that it has been going on for many hundreds of years.


Rejected
Ruth





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow.
If you are going to go so far as to call me a heretic, maybe you should provide a verse or two to back up your position... especially since the election position relies on God's sovereignty and the free will position relies on man's.
theatheistjew





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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread is a perfect example why there is no time for the bible in school. Christians can't agree on what a book "written/inspired by God" has to say.
Why would God make things so difficult? LOL

Looks like we need a different school for just about every poster here.
Ruth





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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
Christians can't agree on what a book "written/inspired by God" has to say.
Why would God make things so difficult?

He doesn't.
We do.
Christians accept that we are inherently flawed. Unfortunately, we bring our flaws to the table when we strive to understand God's Word. There are certain things we don't disagree on, such as the fact you must be saved. On the other hand, how that salvation actually comes about has been the subject of much discussion throughout the years. It's an important topic for us, since it can have a profound impact on how we live and share our faith.
As Calvinist see it, the central question of free will verses election is one of God's sovereignty. As Arminians see it, the question centers around whether or not we are puppets forced to believe.

--Ruth
theatheistjew





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Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ruth wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
Christians can't agree on what a book "written/inspired by God" has to say.
Why would God make things so difficult?

He doesn't.
We do.
Christians accept that we are inherently flawed. Unfortunately, we bring our flaws to the table when we strive to understand God's Word. There are certain things we don't disagree on, such as the fact you must be saved. On the other hand, how that salvation actually comes about has been the subject of much discussion throughout the years. It's an important topic for us, since it can have a profound impact on how we live and share our faith.
As Calvinist see it, the central question of free will verses election is one of God's sovereignty. As Arminians see it, the question centers around whether or not we are puppets forced to believe.

--Ruth

Do you have free will on how you interpret the bible?
urbanmonk





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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Calvinist leanings notwithstanding, I'm going to vote for you Ruth....
I can't expect a person to be right all the time! :~)
Ruth





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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
Do you have free will on how you interpret the bible?

Interesting question. Hopefully I can give you a complete answer.
The first thing to keep in mind is that all sin and wrongdoing is NOT freedom. As we already discussed in this thread, it is slavery and bondage.
My gut reaction would be to say no, in reality you don't. You may not interpret the Bible as you see fit and the Bible is full of warnings to those who try to pervert Scripture to support their sin (This is especially true of the New Testament). There is really only one right way to understand the Bible.
The problem is that, as I said, we are flawed. Finding that one right way, striving for perfect obedience, is part of what we are supposed to do.
Now, problems can and do arise when two or more Christians of different convictions conflict of a particular passage of Scripture. In some cases, the conflict is easily resolved. We can take Paul's example in Romans 14 and 15 about not causing your brother to stumble. In other situations however, the disagreement is severe and churches split. In the case of a split, I would say that one party is right and the other is wrong... the wrong party just doesn't want to admit it.
Hope that helps to answer your question.

--Ruth
PS: urbanmonk, funny you should say that. I was just about to vote for you... but I have to wait the requisite 30min.
urbanmonk





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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
PS: urbanmonk, funny you should say that. I was just about to vote for you... but I have to wait the requisite 30min.

LOL, I've been waiting too! Grrr
theatheistjew





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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure that if a Catholic thought their interpretation was wrong they would convert to the "right" one. The same with Mormons, Baptists,etc.
I think you need to come up with a better spin :P

It doesn't just mean Christians either. If we don't have a choice of how to interpret the bible, we can throw in Muslims who converted from Christianity as well.
Oh, and there is a very good chance that when two theists disagree, both are wrong when interpreting the bible. That possibility exists too, just ask any Jehovah Witness.
Ruth





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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
I'm pretty sure that if a Catholic thought their interpretation was wrong they would convert to the "right" one. The same with Mormons, Baptists,etc.
I think you need to come up with a better spin
...
and there is a very good chance that when two theists disagree, both are wrong when interpreting the bible. That possibility exists too, just ask any Jehovah Witness.


Yeah that does happen.
But I don't need to come up with a better spin. Sin and our imperfection explains a lot of our problem. In fact, it is THE problem. In Romans 1, Paul comments that the ungodly exchange the truth for a lie. Paul also writes in II Timothy 3 that the ungodly in the church have a form of godliness, but lack its true power. The parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25 also addresses the fact that there are some who say they are believers but actually are not.
In any case, many Catholics have converted to other denominations. Both my mom and my father-in-law are former Catholics. There are also some doctrinal differences that are not what we refer to as "salvation issues." For example, take the differences between the Catholic, Reformed and Baptist views of baptism. Catholics and Reformers baptize infants, but the underlying theology is different. Baptists only baptize individuals who have already made confession and are of an age to understand. However, all of us agree that you should be baptized.

--Ruth
Ruth





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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey urbanmonk (and others)
So, I've recently joined a Facebook group called Calvinism: The Group that Chooses You.
Anyways, under a discussion called "Can you be a Calvinist and a non-determinist" a few people are trying to argue that God created sin and evil.
Which He didn't.
Want to join in?

--Ruth
PS: You'll be able to tell which one is me ;-)
don muntean





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ruth wrote:
Hey urbanmonk (and others)
So, I've recently joined a Facebook group called Calvinism: The Group that Chooses You.
Anyways, under a discussion called "Can you be a Calvinist and a non-determinist" a few people are trying to argue that God created sin and evil.
Which He didn't.
Want to join in?

--Ruth
PS: You'll be able to tell which one is me ;-)


So where is evidence that He didn't create sin and evil? Who created evil? Who created the yetza hara - the evil impulse?
don muntean





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ruth wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
Christians can't agree on what a book "written/inspired by God" has to say.
Why would God make things so difficult?

He doesn't.
We do.
Christians accept that we are inherently flawed. Unfortunately, we bring our flaws to the table when we strive to understand God's Word. There are certain things we don't disagree on, such as the fact you must be saved. On the other hand, how that salvation actually comes about has been the subject of much discussion throughout the years. It's an important topic for us, since it can have a profound impact on how we live and share our faith.
As Calvinist see it, the central question of free will verses election is one of God's sovereignty. As Arminians see it, the question centers around whether or not we are puppets forced to believe.

--Ruth


How do non-Christians make it to heaven? :roll:


Last edited by don muntean on Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
Ruth





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

don muntean wrote:
So where is evidence that He didn't create sin and evil? Who created evil? Who created the yetza hara - the evil impulse?

Sin (the state) is the result of the fall. It entered the world through Adam's disobedience (See Romans 6). It is what causes our evil impulses to commit sins. God does not tempt us, but we are tempted by our own evil desires. (James 1:13-15) Sin (the action) is what happens in the absence of God's grace. Sin (the state) is what and where God is not. Sin is a hole, an absence, not a thing. God could not have created sin, since that would make sin a part of Himself. You can't have A and not A.
The Bible, St. Augustine, Calvin and the Westminster Confession all agree with me. I'd really rather not rehash everything I've been saying for the last three days.

-Ruth
PS: This ought to get you started with a "little" reading don. It was my final post on the issue... unless someone caves and admits they are wrong.
Quote:
This is my last post. If you are not convinced by the mountain of Scriptural evidence I am about to provide, then I cannot help you.

//snip//

Secondly, //snip//, sin is
1. A state separating us from God. It holds us captive and keeps us in bondage.
and
2. The actions that are a result of that state, ie: transgressions against God's Divine will, something we do against Him or someone else. It is to do evil in the sight of God. It is to do what God forbids.

Here are a few verses to support this two-part definition. Be sure to read them all.
Genesis 4:7, Genesis 39:9, Exodus 10:16, Exodus 23:33, Exodus 32:30-34, Leviticus 4:3, 14, 23, 26, 28, 35, Leviticus 5:6,7, 10, Leviticus 18: 24-26, Numbers 5:7, 31, Numbers 9:13, Numbers 12:11, Numbers 14:18,19, Numbers 15:27, Numbers 18:22, Deuteronomy 9:18, 27, Deuteronomy 15:9, Deuteronomy 20:18, Deuteronomy 23:21, Deuteronomy 24:4, 15, 16, 1 Samuel 2:17, 1 Samuel 3:13, 1 Samuel 12:23, 1 Samuel 14:34, 2 Samuel 12:13, 2 Samuel 22:24, 1 Kings 8:34-36, 46, 1 Kings 15:26, 34, 1 Kings 16:2, 19, 26, 2 Chronicles 6:24-26, Job 31:30-33, Job 33:9,
Job 35:5-7 (This one is of particular note, since it states that our sin (and also our righteousness) does not affect God, since God is much mightier than we, and untouched by what we do)
Psalm 4:4, Psalm 17:3, Psalm 18:23, Psalm 32:2-5, Psalm 38:3, 18, Psalm 39:1, 11, Psalm 51:2, 3, Psalm 66:18, Psalm 78:17, Psalm 89:32, Psalm 106:43,
Psalm 119:11 (This is also an interesting verse, since it suggests that hiding God's Word in our hearts will prevent us from sinning. Gee, I wonder why that would be?)
Psalm 119:133, Proverbs 1:16, Proverbs 20:9, Proverbs 21:4, Proverbs 24:9, Proverbs 29:6, Isaiah 5:18, Isaiah 6:7,
Isaiah 30:1 (This is the best verse of all. It says "Woe to the obstinate children," declares the LORD, "to those who carry out plans that are not mine, forming an alliance, but not by my Spirit, heaping sin upon sin;" so, despite what you have been arguing, Scripture does EXPLICITLY state that it is possible to carry out a plan that is NOT God's. Too bad I didn't find this one earlier. The discussion would be over by now. )
Isaiah 59:7, Isaiah 64:5, Jeremiah 9:3, Jeremiah 16:10-18, Jeremiah 17:1, Jeremiah 31:30
Jeremiah 32:35 (This one speaks to that "point" about God making people sin "They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin." Based on this, He clearly does not.)
Jeremiah 33:8, Jeremiah 36:3, Lamentations 4:22, Ezekiel 3:19-21, Ezekiel 7:19, Ezekiel 9:9, Ezekiel 18:15-21, 26, 30, Hosea 5:5, Hosea 10:8-10,Hosea 13:2, Hosea 12:8, Malachi 2:5-6, Matthew 5:29-30,
Matthew 13:41 (Here we have yet another verse that speaks to that "point" about God causing sin. The verse says "The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil." Now, if God created sin, that means He caused it. So, how can weed out Himself?)
Mark 3:29,
Mark 9:42 (Yet another verse that speaks to that "point" about God causing sin. "If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck." )
Mark 9:43-47,
Luke 17:1 (Wow. Another verse! How about that, eh? "Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come." So, if sin were ever to come through God, there would be woe on Himself? This is nonsensical.)
Luke 17:2 (Same argument as Mark 9:42)
John 8:34 (Someone was trying to show sinners aren't slaves to sin. I would maybe think about that one since "Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin."")
John 16:8, 9, John 19:11, Acts 8:23, Romans 2:12, Romans 3:9, Romans 5:12-21, Romans 6:6-23, Romans 7:7-25, Romans 8:2-10, Romans 14:23, 1 Corinthians 8:12-13, 1 Corinthians 15:56, 2 Corinthians 5:21, 2 Corinthians 12:21, Galatians 2:17, Galatians 3:22, 1 Timothy 5:20, James 1:15, James 2:9,
1 John 3:4 sums it up best
"Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness."

--Ruth
PS: Happy reading.
urbanmonk





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ruth wrote:
Hey urbanmonk (and others)
So, I've recently joined a Facebook group called Calvinism: The Group that Chooses You.
Want to join in?

Thanks for the invite Ruth. I read the posts on the topic and wow, those lads have really got themselves in a sad state. From what I've seen I don't believe they know their bible or care to. But I do admire your patients tho....
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Free Will vs Election

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