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candycane





Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 1


PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's where John Tory made his mistake:

He is proposing funding for "faith-based" schools when he is really proposing funding for private religious schools.

Even if these private religious schools follow the Ontario Curriculum and employ qualified teachers, these schools will still be privately run. Tory can't fool me that these will become public schools. They'll still be privately operated.

What Tory should have done was offered "choice in education" rather than the more limited "faith-based" choice.

Tory's current proposal doesn't answer whether or not private religious schools would still be able to charge tuition.

Tory also doesn't mention which school would qualify as being religious. Could I start an independent Christian athletic school, place a cross in front of the building, receive funding from the government, and charge extra tuition to cover athletic costs?

Had I been John Tory, I would have proposed a commission to examine alternative programs within the public school system. We currently have French Immersion schools. A commission could have looked at the financial and educational feasibility of expanding alternative programs that could include Judaism, Islam, Christianity, athletics, the arts, sciences, and foreign languages. He could be getting more support with "choice in education" rather than "faith based" choice.

I'll be blunt. John Tory's proposal is just a scam for private religious school businesses to receive money from the taxpayers. In my mind, they will not become public schools even if they receive funding, hire qualified teachers, and follow the Ontario Curriculum.

To all you right-wing wingnuts who want to bash the public school system because you think students learn about homosexuality everyday: I have never taught or talked about homosexuality with students between kindergarten and grade six. With students in grades seven and eight. Homosexuality has been discussed in terms of physical gay bashing (including against those who are perceived as being gay but are heterosexual like most of the population). This discussion lasts about one period per year. Also, I have never read any book that has to do with two moms or dads.

Finally, I really don't care if students learn about creationism, evolution, or both. I want students to think for themselves and think critically.

John Tory could have had a winning educational platform that included choice for all families. Instead, he blew it with his "faiith-based" private religious school funding.
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
Reputation: 131.2
votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Despite what BEAJ says, I don't think that you could find 100 people who are either angry, or elated about this move.


See above.

Tory really dropped the ball on this one. I wonder if there are any polls out there that would gauge reaction to getting rid of the Seperate schools.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
Quote:
Oh, and I don't think it is necessary to close threads because you don't like the way they are going. If people don't want to comment the threads will die on their own regardless if they go off topic or not.

Are you a book burner too?


He just burns broken records. :lol:

That is what politics is all about. But I have to hand it to you Socko, that was very witty.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It isn't too late for Tory to say that he has decided to leave funding religious schools to the voters and promise a referendum. And if he had any jewels he would also bring up the issue of whether Ontarians want funding for Catholic schools too.

Without mentioning the Catholic schools, Tory could save face by stressing this is a democracy, and he was naive about what Ontarians felt on the issue.

Can you imagine a politician doing this. I think it would work, but I don't work for his campaign. The ones who do and thought the funding idea was good aren't qualified to work as an assistant manager at McDonalds.
Riley W





Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 857
Reputation: 35.5Reputation: 35.5Reputation: 35.5Reputation: 35.5
votes: 10
Location: Manitoba

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thinking back what Tory should have done is:

Offer 50% funding for all non-public schools in Ontario.

Including religious, music, tech, science - and all other specialty schools.

That way its not religion specific.
Riley W





Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 857
Reputation: 35.5Reputation: 35.5Reputation: 35.5Reputation: 35.5
votes: 10
Location: Manitoba

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
westmanguy wrote:
Who is "BEAJ"?

Me. Bacon Eating Atheist Jew.

And no, I don't go with the "logic" of "fairness" with respect to Tories plan. If he wants fairness, he too should say bye to Catholic school funding.

I'll ask again. What percent of Catholic school kids go to Catholic schools? I don't know, but I'm assuming over 75%. How many would go if it wasn't funded?
What will stop 75% of Ontario children or whatever that number is, from attending a school that fits with their parents beliefs?
How is Ontario going to afford funding a Mormon board, a Baptist board, a Jewish board, a Muslim board? Who is going to pay for new schools that will spring up out of "fairness" Oh, and are private secular schools going to get funded too? It is only "fair"

Tory can't think ahead one move. We don't need a leader like that.

And yes, unfortunately I think he would have won, and I would have voted for him if not for this idiotic move.

The only thing fair is one publicly funded school system.


So the real reason is your atheist motives?

You have an issue with this because you fear thousands upon thousands of children will leave the "secular" system, so their parents can (in what probably will be your words) "indoctrinate" their beliefs into them at no cost.

Please answer something, if its between McGuinty's plan or Tory's plan - which do you choose?
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I choose the status quo. Even though I don't think Catholic schools should get funded either. The Catholics got grandfathered in and no politician will let the people vote for what is right.

And no, I'm not worried about kids leaving secular education. I'm worried about kids getting too much brainwashing (they can get enough at home and their place of worship). I'm worried about Canada not keeping up with other countries when it comes to research and science. You aren't going to get many scientists if kids are brainwashed that the earth is less than 10,000 years old and that science is one big conspiracy when it comes to evolution. I don't want to fund Al Qaeda training camps either.

I also don't want to pay more taxes for this bs, which is inevitable because there is no reason to believe that up to 75% of the kids will be enrolled in faith based schools if free.

There are only so many hours in a school day/year, and kids should be taught fact not faith when in school.

I believe in separation of church and state. If you want to howl at the moon god, that is your business, but I'm not paying for Church of the mood god.

And for sure, I don't want my tax dollars paying for children learning myths.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

westmanguy wrote:
Thinking back what Tory should have done is:

Offer 50% funding for all non-public schools in Ontario.

Including religious, music, tech, science - and all other specialty schools.

That way its not religion specific.

Are we not a democracy? Why shouldn't we be able to vote on this issue separately?
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When God comes on TV and tells us he is real and then tells us what the right religion is, then I'll gladly allow a politician to use taxpayers money to fund that church/synagogue/mosque/temple/fire etc.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
Reputation: 104
votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
Are we not a democracy? Why shouldn't we be able to vote on this issue separately?

Yes, we are... place your vote where you like... and since when did each and every single issue need to be voted on separately? As if our various levels of government aren't screwed up enough now you want a "direct" vote on every single issue? Thanks, but NO THANKS!!

-Mac
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
Reputation: 156.2Reputation: 156.2
votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would take Catholic, Quaker, Mennonite, Baptist, any Christian indoctrination at all over the indoctrination that BEAJ offers. I have rarely run across such a closed minded individual, a person who is so sure that absolutely everything he says is 100% correct in every way, and anyone who does not agree with him 100% is an absolute fool.

I would also like for my boy to take a pass on the Stalinist/Maoist/Tommy Douglasist/leftist indoctrination that he is likely to find in Beaj's public school system. The public school system works fine for turning out the next generation of Liberal or NDP or Communist youth, don't know why it is so staunchly defended by Conservatives, or held up as a shining example of progress. That probably means a private Christian school for the boy, as I just cannot see the public system improving or changing in any way any time soon.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
I would take Catholic, Quaker, Mennonite, Baptist, any Christian indoctrination at all over the indoctrination that BEAJ offers. I have rarely run across such a closed minded individual, a person who is so sure that absolutely everything he says is 100% correct in every way, and anyone who does not agree with him 100% is an absolute fool.

I would also like for my boy to take a pass on the Stalinist/Maoist/Tommy Douglasist/leftist indoctrination that he is likely to find in Beaj's public school system. The public school system works fine for turning out the next generation of Liberal or NDP or Communist youth, don't know why it is so staunchly defended by Conservatives, or held up as a shining example of progress. That probably means a private Christian school for the boy, as I just cannot see the public system improving or changing in any way any time soon.

My way is to just stick with facts and not faith in school.
Lets see, Nazi Germany was ripe for the pickin when it came to killing Jews thanks to the societies Catholic teachings that the Jews killed Jesus.
Of course you want to have your child brainwashed by the religion you were born into, you don't know any better.
I'm totally open minded. But I know stupid people when I see them. There are some brilliant theists out there. You aren't one of them. Ruth is very smart though.
I can tell you how open minded I am. I started off assuming God existed, then I started doubting God's existence, and now I came to the realization that there is absolutely no evidence God exists and that it is highly probable that all religions are man made that worship around a man made God.

Yes, my mind can change based on information. The theist who refuses evolution, and the many that believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old are the close minded ones.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
Are we not a democracy? Why shouldn't we be able to vote on this issue separately?

Yes, we are... place your vote where you like... and since when did each and every single issue need to be voted on separately? As if our various levels of government aren't screwed up enough now you want a "direct" vote on every single issue? Thanks, but NO THANKS!!

-Mac

This issue is not something that Tory has the right to force on us. And I believe that when Catholic school funding stopped in Quebec, it was voted on first, I could be wrong.

But again, Tory is dead meat because people will vote against this issue.

Too bad, because of what happened in Quebec, he might have actually won this election. Now he has the same chance of winning as the NDP. What a short sighted idiot he is.
cosmostein





Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 7435
Reputation: 297.4
votes: 21
Location: The World

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:

My way is to just stick with facts and not faith in school.
Lets see, Nazi Germany was ripe for the pickin when it came to killing Jews thanks to the societies Catholic teachings that the Jews killed Jesus.


I think you are more of a fanatic then even the most extreme Bible/Torah/Quran thumper I have ever come across.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cosmostein wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:

My way is to just stick with facts and not faith in school.
Lets see, Nazi Germany was ripe for the pickin when it came to killing Jews thanks to the societies Catholic teachings that the Jews killed Jesus.


I think you are more of a fanatic then even the most extreme Bible/Torah/Quran thumper I have ever come across.

You must be Catholic. Many Catholics like to keep their head in the sand when it comes to Nazi Germany and pedophile priests, etc.

Religious people don't realize how much hate they actually teach. Again, it is wilfull ignorance on their part.
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