Home FAQ Search Memberlist User Groups Register Login   

BloggingTories.ca Forum IndexBloggingTories.ca Forum Index
    Index     FAQ     Search     Register     Login         JOIN THE DISCUSSION - CLICK HERE      

*NEW* Login or register using your Facebook account.

Not a member? Join the fastest growing conservative community!
Membership is free and takes 15 seconds


CLICK HERE or use Facebook to login or register ----> Connect



Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next  

Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 5 of 6
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
Reputation: 131.2
votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ wrote:
Quote:
Ever heard of a self fulfilling prophecy? That is all Israel is.
It really wasn't that hard to attain once the Jews made it a goal.


My reading of Jewish history leads me to believe that the formation of the State of Israel was exceedingly difficult and nothing short of miraculous.

1. The Zionist movement begins in the late 1800's.
2. Inceasing resettlement of Palestine by Jews in the 1890's
2. Hebrew is brought back to life throught the efforts of Eliezer Ben-Yehuda.
3. Balfour Declaration of 1917.
4. World War 2 and the Holocaust creates greater impetus for a Jewish Homeland.
5. 1948 declaration of Independence.
6. Victory in the Arab-Israeli war after all the neighbouring Muslim States attack expanding Israels borders.
7. Further wars that also expand the borders.

If you asked the people of Israel at the time I think they would say it was very difficult
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It wasn't that easy, but it was very doable. Again, it was a self fulfilling prophecy, and Herzl who founded modern Zionism was an atheist/agnostic Jew. He just wanted to escape anti-semitism in Europe in the late 1800's.
They were even considering Zaire as the new Jewish homeland, but the religious folk didn't want any part of that idea.
Again, it was a self fulfilling prophecy, nothing more, nothing less.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A zealot is someone who canít change his mind, and who wonít change the subject.
********************
I have changed my mind before. I went from secular believer, to agnostic to atheist. This happened over a long period of time, using facts, knowledge, and common sense.

I also changed my mind about voting for the Conservatives in Ontario thank to John Tory's religious funding platform :D

I am very reasonable to debate with as long as I respect the other debater. When someone calls atheism a religion, I lose all respect for the persons intellect and treat him accordingly.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
Reputation: 104
votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
A zealot is someone who canít change his mind, and who wonít change the subject.

Misquoted, dear sir... Sir Winston Churchill said "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."

theatheistjew wrote:
I am very reasonable to debate with as long as I respect the other debater. When someone calls atheism a religion, I lose all respect for the persons intellect and treat him accordingly.

Would you say someone is reasonable if that person sets arbitrary limits on what can and cannot be part of a discussion? For the record, I've never said atheism is a religion but I've often said it takes more faith to be atheist than to be theist.

-Mac
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using faith to describe an atheist means you don't know what an atheist is and/or you don't know what faith means.

It falls under the same category as calling atheism a religion.

I assume you are using it in the context that I have faith that God doesn't exist. That is wrong, as stated before, there is no evidence that an invisible man lives under my bed, and there is no evidence that God has ever existed.

Faith does not even enter into the picture. Unless you redefine what faith is. I'm not into those games.
biggie





Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1738
Reputation: 44Reputation: 44Reputation: 44Reputation: 44
votes: 10
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BEAJ:

You are the type of person I often classify as a militant atheist. Instead of respectfully disagreeing with the position of theism, you choose to fight it.

Conversely, I see many others who are equally polarized in their view of the powers that be.. I can fully apreciate your distaste for such attitudes... it is a distaste that I share with you.

I think a little moderation on both sides would be benificial. Instead of discussing such an uncertain topic in certainties, this topic is best dealt with in possibilities.

It is not effective for any of us to be speaking in positives when it comes to matters of faith(or lack there of). It also is not effective for us to mince words.. Do we want to have a contentious conversation, or an intelligent one? At the end of the day do you want to burn bridges because someone wants to disagree... or do you want to solidify positions by embracing similarities?

I would prefer the latter...

Disagreement makes us better people; it ensures that we get to learn the most, consider the best aproaches and discover the best posibilities that this life has to offer us.

Nobody here is an intelectual superior; and to think so is hard evidence of your own weaknesses. No matter who it is; solidifying an un-provable position doesn't strengthen your own credibility... it worsens it.

Something to consider.
Riley W





Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 857
Reputation: 35.5Reputation: 35.5Reputation: 35.5Reputation: 35.5
votes: 10
Location: Manitoba

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think most atheists are liberal, because Conservatism usually stands up for Judeo-Christian heritage.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
Reputation: 104
votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
Using faith to describe an atheist means you don't know what an atheist is and/or you don't know what faith means.

It falls under the same category as calling atheism a religion.

I assume you are using it in the context that I have faith that God doesn't exist. That is wrong, as stated before, there is no evidence that an invisible man lives under my bed, and there is no evidence that God has ever existed.

Faith does not even enter into the picture. Unless you redefine what faith is. I'm not into those games.

You know what they say about people who assume...

I'm not playing semantics about what "faith" means with you. My position is very simple yet you've jumped to an inaccurate conclusion... but it doesn't matter since you've already indicated you have no respect for the intellect of anyone who calls atheism a religion so you're likely not even reading this.

To a theist, the universe is organized by a Supreme Being so anything which defy current understanding can be attributed to that Being's plan. Faith in the Supreme Being helps to define the universe for the theist.

To an atheist, there is no complete answer. Who created the universe? It simply is. How does the atheist come to this conclusion? As theatheistjew has shown, science provides many theories but each of those theories require the atheist to have faith in the scientist who formulated the theory, to have faith in those who collected the evidence, to have faith in those who examined it and drew conclusions based upon it. After all, without belief at all of those levels, their theories are meaningless.

Faith in a Supreme Being or faith in hundreds of faceless scientists: you decide who needs more faith?

-Mac
FascistLibertarian





Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 1092
Reputation: 30.1Reputation: 30.1Reputation: 30.1
votes: 14
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah sorry about the misquote :P

Quote:
I have changed my mind before. I went from secular believer, to agnostic to atheist. This happened over a long period of time, using facts, knowledge, and common sense.


Psyc studies of split brained patients show that people usually make up their minds about something then use whatever evidence they can to back up their position. I think its more likely you became an atheist then found evidence to back up your point of view.

theatheistjew, do you think the world would be better off if everyone was atheist?
Do you think that God and a man you cant see under your bed are equally likely to exist?

People believe in irrational things all the time. I keep going to Leafs game. :lol:

Basically I think you just launched your arguement in a bad way.
You could have ASKED people, give me a reason to believe in God.
Instead you pretty much said 'there is no God and people who feel that there is, or attempt to debate with me are stupid'
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Faith in the scientific method is not the same as faith in a supernatural being. Scientific theory is testable and falsifiable, while God is not. If you say that I need more faith to believe in gravity than to believe in an alternative theory, I think that is just plain ridiculous.

As far as what got the universe rolling, yes there are scientific theories regarding this, but just because science hasn't got the answer yet definitively, doesn't mean Godidit. God in the gaps theory doesn't work for me. Like I said before, there was a time when lightning couldn't be explained by man, so man had to think that lightning was a direct product of God whenever it occurred. Science came around and explained it.

Besides, lets say God started the universe off, I have many problems with that, you still have to assume he made something from nothing, and you also have to wonder who created him. You still have the same problem with the beginning of time, the second before God came around. And you have to wonder why there is no evidence in the last 13.7 billion years that God exists.

so you're likely not even reading this
*****************************
Remember what you said about assumptions:)
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FascistLibertarian wrote:
Yeah sorry about the misquote :P

Quote:
I have changed my mind before. I went from secular believer, to agnostic to atheist. This happened over a long period of time, using facts, knowledge, and common sense.


Psyc studies of split brained patients show that people usually make up their minds about something then use whatever evidence they can to back up their position. I think its more likely you became an atheist then found evidence to back up your point of view.
***********************************
Actually, I became an atheist through contemplating the universe, reading, taking science courses (and not doing great in them) and it took a lot of time. I still considered God existed and was agnostic well into my 20's, but then more contemplation took place, and now I've been atheist for at least 15 years. Sure, now I find lots of evidence that backs up my atheism, but I don't really search for it. I'm attracted to scientific stories that come out (especially evolution) and even biblical archaeological stories. It was only in the last 4 years that I did a lot of reading on the historical Jesus and the Exodus, and I find that there is zero evidence to support either and I do like to read secular history regarding both now or watching videos regarding the two non events.

theatheistjew, do you think the world would be better off if everyone was atheist?
Do you think that God and a man you cant see under your bed are equally likely to exist?
******************************************
I don't think it will ever happen that the world will be full of atheists contrary to South Parks prediction:) But I do think the world would be better without fundamental religionists, especially Islamists. I think that someone who embraces the idea of evolution fully understands that gays are born that way most of the time, and we tend to be more tolerant of them than theists, but I also think that human beings can be evil with or without religion, and ideologies can be evil with or without religion.
I think under Western values atheism works well. Take Sweden and Denmark for example. The majority in both countries today are atheist/agnostic and you don't see people dying in death camps.
Yes, I honestly think that God and an invisible man under my bed have an equal chance to exist.

People believe in irrational things all the time. I keep going to Leafs game. :lol:
*******************************
True, I've written about this in my blog. We are hardwired to accept the supernatural. Even I have second thoughts about moving from my seat when my team is on a roll in a game on TV. I read a good book on the subject called The God Part Of The Brain. It was beneficial to early humans to believe in supernatural answers to allow them to cope better, and right now this trait is still part of our genetic makeup.

Basically I think you just launched your arguement in a bad way.
You could have ASKED people, give me a reason to believe in God.
Instead you pretty much said 'there is no God and people who feel that there is, or attempt to debate with me are stupid'

*********************************************
I don't think that Ken Miller for example is stupid at all. I think intelligence and belief in the supernatural are separate entities, but there are more stupid people who believe in God than those who don't. And those who don't believe evolution is a reality are wilfully ignorant, and a high percentage of them have lower levels of education (<a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm">here is a link</a>) and have lower IQs collectively (if you believe in IQs like I do). I know many intelligent people who do not deny evolution and the age of the universe yet also have faith in God.
I even respect the Pope's recent position on science regarding this matter. He is pretty bright.
Again, I didn't mean to come across that I want to debate the existence of God. To me it is like debating the existence of an invisible man under my bed. My stance is there is no evidence for God, and it is fair for me to ask if anyone has evidence to back their position up.
Ruth





Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 243
Reputation: 8.5Reputation: 8.5Reputation: 8.5Reputation: 8.5Reputation: 8.5Reputation: 8.5Reputation: 8.5Reputation: 8.5
votes: 7

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
Besides, lets say God started the universe off, I have many problems with that, you still have to assume he made something from nothing, and you also have to wonder who created him. You still have the same problem with the beginning of time, the second before God came around. And you have to wonder why there is no evidence in the last 13.7 billion years that God exists.

So, in your perceived absence of evidence that God exists, I am assuming you will be able to point us to evidence that God does not exist.
A lack of evidence for existence does not count as evidence for a lack of existence.

Quote:
And those who don't believe evolution is a reality are wilfully ignorant, and a high percentage of them have lower levels of education (here is a link) and have lower IQs collectively (if you believe in IQs like I do). I know many intelligent people who do not deny evolution and the age of the universe yet also have faith in God.

So
based on this absurd and unsupportable view
why don't you tell me how educated I am?
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, in your perceived absence of evidence that God exists, I am assuming you will be able to point us to evidence that God does not exist.
A lack of evidence for existence does not count as evidence for a lack of existence.
**************************
Again, no it doesn't. All I am saying is that there is no evidence God exists, so what is the point of considering the existence of anything that has no evidence associated with it? I can't point out evidence that an invisible pink elephant isn't watching me type this reply to you over my shoulder right now, but should I consider the possibility that there is a pink elephant watching me type this?
If you make a claim that there is a God, it is up to the person making such a claim to provide evidence.
My claim is that there is no evidence for a God or Gods or supernatural beings. That claim is falsifiable and requires no back up.


So
based on this absurd and unsupportable view
why don't you tell me how educated I am?
********************************
This is based on collective statistics. It is supported. But it doesn't mean there aren't people with 150 IQs who deny reality (evolution,etc).
You appear to be very well educated and intelligent. But you are also wilfully ignorant when it comes to evolution because it conflicts with your religious beliefs (your faith).
Go to the link I provided. 25% of college grads in the US reject evolution (I suspect the majority of them are religious, many went to religious colleges, and most didn't take post secondary sciences), but 65% of high school dropouts in the US reject evolution.

Now you can say that high school dropouts are just as intelligent as college grads, but I hope you don't. Sure some high school dropouts could be geniuses, but not very many of them.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
Reputation: 104
votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
Faith in the scientific method is not the same as faith in a supernatural being. Scientific theory is testable and falsifiable, while God is not. If you say that I need more faith to believe in gravity than to believe in an alternative theory, I think that is just plain ridiculous.

Wait a minute.... :shock:

theatheistjew wrote:
Unless you redefine what faith is. I'm not into those games.

Okay... :wink:

theatheistjew wrote:
so you're likely not even reading this
*****************************
Remember what you said about assumptions:)

I was being sardonic... but I assume you knew that... :D

-Mac

ps: we need an emoticon to express a rim-shot.
gc





Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 1698
Reputation: 48.4Reputation: 48.4Reputation: 48.4Reputation: 48.4Reputation: 48.4
votes: 16
Location: A Monochromatic World

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ruth wrote:
So, in your perceived absence of evidence that God exists, I am assuming you will be able to point us to evidence that God does not exist.
A lack of evidence for existence does not count as evidence for a lack of existence.


If you can tell us why you don't believe in Santa Claus, you will understand why many people don't believe in God.
Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 5 of 6

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next  


 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Evolution, Atheism, and Separation of Church and State

phpBBCopyright 2001, 2005 phpBB