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What do you think is the most correct of the two statements?
Video games, horror films, and goth music caused the Montreal shooter to become violent
5%
 5%  [ 1 ]
The Montreal shooter was insane and evil, but ultimately bears responsability for his actions
94%
 94%  [ 18 ]
Total Votes : 19

Author Message
Albertan Technophile





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:08 pm    Post subject: Enter the scapegoat Reply with quote

Enter the scapegoat!

As soon as the cordite smell clears and the live coverage ends, the Media go looking for their favorite scapegoat. A quick and easy target that they can place the blame for an evil person's actions, because it just isn't sensational enough to blame the shooter.

Why yes, I'm talking about video games. The first target of the hack journalist.

Never mind personal responsibility, animated pixels programmed him to killkillkill!

Forget about the fact that virtually every 20-something has played games, or plays games regularly. The media wants you to believe that games can turn any person into a homicidal maniac, never mind the fact that violent youth crime rates have been steadily falling for 20 years.

Ignore the the voluntary ratings given to games are far more stringent than for any other type of entertainment. (ESRB will rate a game T for teen for showing tobacco use) According to the Media parental responsibility does not exist.

The fact remains, Video Games are a quick and easy target while the concept that evil and crazy people remains a hard sell.

Now, if you don't mind I'm really angry right now so I'm going to go play a game and work off my frustration!
biggie





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hahaha the video game thing always makes me laugh...

I played video games more than your av-er-age boy, and I ended up a non-violent, extremely productive member of society.

I actually attribute a good deal of my hand-eye coordination and reasoning abilities to the fact that I played a lot of video games when I was young.
Albertan Technophile





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a crippled-up 32 year old retiree, I spend alot of time gaming. Hell, I've done alot of everything that the media calls a risk factor, exept for drugs.

Video Games? I've played almost every major title for the PC since 1985

Heavy Metal Music? Hours and hours of it.

Role Playing games? Fifteen years playing every one I could.

Funny, the most violent thing I ever did was a few fist fights. And even then I never really hurt anyone.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am upset that he was killed so quickly. What he deserved was to be sent to prison, and learn firsthand what a tough guy he really is. I suppose shooting rampages like this are the inevitable result of a society in which all our problems can be blamed on someone else.
Donald Hughes





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently the guy was actually a goth. I still think people get too worked up about these sorts of things, trying to turn the person into a monster of some sort. Losers who aren't particularly evil kill people too, in fact they are probably more likely to do so than some sort of romanticized twisted villain. Prison may be many things but I don't think it does much good for almost any criminal. At best it gets them hooked on some sort of drug or religion, at worst it puts them in an abuse and training camp at public expense. I often find it interesting how people project on to criminals though, they often start talking in very cryto-erotic ways about punishing and dominating them. It gets very creepy.
biggie





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's a natural reaction...

As long as its not acted on, there's nothing wrong with wanting to..
FF_Canuck





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In all fairness, I think its possible to agree with both positions listed in the poll.

I know I'm in an extremely small minority among a board populated by many information age libertarians, but I think that violent media does play a part in societal violence.

This is the part where people start screaming - to clarify, I don't think the gov't has a role to play in solving this problem, and I don't think everyone who plays Doom 3 for a couple hours a night is transformed into a violent psychopath.

I used to agree with you guys on the issue - after all, I play quite a few violent games myself. But then I had the unique experience of watching a 3 hour presentation by a retired US Army Ranger Officer. He develops psychological training programs for military and law enforcement. I sat in silence for 3 hours, and experienced a dramatic shift in my opinion on the matter. To this date, I've never had anyone changed my mind on something so drastically. The logic, science, and research was to me, simply indisputable.

My roommate had brought the video home from school, where'd they'd watched it in class. He said my reaction was the same as almost half the people in the class. I wish it was publicly available. You can check out his website, www.killology.com, but it doesn't have a quarter of the impact his lectures do.
Albertan Technophile





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone who gets inspired to kill from a game was 9/10th cracked already.
don muntean





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...but let us not be dismissive of the fact that society has a fixation with violence - sex doesn't even see as much 'promotion' as violence - especially in games.

Society knows that there are those with a tendency to serious disorders in electronic gambling.

I think that there are even more people who play violent games - the shoot-em-up slasher games etc., who then become fixated with the violence.

It can later lead to serious obsession with violence - in terms of inducing and/or seeing such violence - outside the games. How many violent game lovers also like websites like rottondotcom where they see all sorts of 'real' gore?

There should be a great deal more limitations on what themes etc., game makers are permitted to incorporate into a game. Like child porn - it aught to be a law saying 'produce it and/or distribute it and yer going to go away to a prison house - for a very long time'.

Today's 3D games have very realistic 'world settings' - this can lead to people living in the games - this is a common issue already - now - there is the psychotropic idea that the mind cannot discern physical reality - from a dream one - without the senses.

Thus with senses - our mind can regulate various internal and external stimulus and thus know the real from the unreal - now in these new games - there is this tendency to a total psyco-sensory immersion into the game - with sight [video] sounds [audio] and touch [game pad] and - the mind can thus become quite convinced of the 'reality' of the game.

Now - normal people who game - do not live in games i.e.: play every day for hours on end and - if when they do game - they experiance this 'other world' sense - from playing games [any games] - it tends to reduce their gaming time - as most people won't like the psychotropic re-orientation - to the reality outside the games - after an intense game experiance. Games are also very overly difficult to complete and tends to keep many people obsessed playing and - in a state of frustration and even anger - to some meaure too. I've seen it in others.

Myself I really despise violent games - where we see any role playing that induces people to act in very violent ways - with guns and knives etc., the rare times that I do game - I like the older games like Star Wars Rogue Squadron and Naboo Fighter - not any first person shooter slasher games - with no real 'valid' theme and/or good story.

Even with today's TV and movies - agression and violence is glorified and obsessed upon - of course - people may think i'm being overly critcal but - I think that all the presentations of so much agression - with all the reminders of sex and lust - is no way to have a culture come up into adulthood.

I grew up in the 1970's and TV was at that time still under some modicum of respect for purity and not pushing too loose an idea of life. I still prefer to watch the old shows from the 60's 70' and 80's - over today's crap - being a sitcom fan - 'most of' today's stuff is too vulgar for me and thus of no interest - outside a hope that it changes

This vulgar sense can really be seen in today's advertising - how degraed it is now and that people see these adverts again and again and again - too often in these adverts there is a subtle selling of many 'other things' - outside the various products noted.

It is sad that the world is seemingly so obsessed with the lowest of things - this is not just a western problem either - this change in our world can be seen to one degree or another - everywhere - yes - humans can tend to be under a dark spell in this pre-post-modern era...
FF_Canuck





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Anyone who gets inspired to kill from a game was 9/10th cracked already.


Believe it or not, that's actually a significant point of the lecture. Its not so much that the game inspires them to kill ... there is no concious thought process going "Gee, that 100th head shot looked really cool - now I'm gonna go do that in real life".

I'll skip over all of the science, but basically the argument is that violent media acts on, and develops, a potential that already exists. It goes like this:

Take 100 children. 40 are normal, well adjusted children. 20 are pacifists. 25 are violence-tolerant. 10 are bullies. 5 have some serious psychological problems.

After the saturation of violent media, 30 normal children become violence-tolerant. 15 of the pacifists aren't. 18 of violence tolerant become bullies, 7 of the bullies become very violent, and finally, every once in a while, 1 of those seriously damaged individuals gets the trigger. I'm really not doing this part of the argument justice, but that's how it works.

However, I disagree with Don. The answer isn't gov't interference. The answer is responsible parenting. A fully matured, adult brain that has not been saturated with violent media is resistant to the effects that cause this phenomenon.
don muntean





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FF_Canuck wrote:
The answer isn't gov't interference. The answer is responsible parenting. A fully matured, adult brain that has not been saturated with violent media is resistant to the effects that cause this phenomenon.


Well the fact is where can anyone fully escape these influences in today's media world?

Even with the most restrictive of parenting there are going to be opportunities to obtain these games. There IS a responsibility in the government to impose some limits - sure it seems that that would be an encroachment on the freedoms of the many because of the potential adverse reactions of a few. Is it really only 'a few' though?

Of course this 'new diversion' is all still new - wait a few more generations with this...

New media is fast changing our interaction with the world and the world is shaped fast by the creative [if we can call it that with most of these games] ideas of others expressed through new medias - so without limits to these ideas - it's a free for all in terms of presenting anything.

Are there any such 'limits' in games right now? Game creators seem to want to make some games more and more horrific - games like Max Pain - so to what limits in expression does it go?

Also - it's not just about youth and this soul-killing pass-time of violence games - too many adults are too far into it as well. Even if they didn't grow up with the violent media it still has an adverse effect - it's like looking at things we don't need to see.

It is hard for some people to understand that what we hear and what we see is very important and that we should not be so callous to being discriminating of what we hear and see.

So many people are fascinated by gore and in the game world they can role play the gore and they do not have to consider the suffering aspect of their virtual victims.

Abject desensitization is what can result from such virtual-interactions.

What was that game the noted killer liked - was it - "postal" - who likes those manner of games?

Especially among adults - there is a concern [with me at least] of those that 'need' a virtual violence outlet. Then there is the growing internet and all the evil and twisted bunk available on here!

To some measure there is a very real culture of death and violence and it is growing...but there is hope - not everyone is attracted to this stuff...


Last edited by don muntean on Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm I've played every game thats come out in recent years and completed most of them. My favorites are first person shooters, and the Grand Theft Auto series. I also love the EA sports series especially boxing(fight night) and the NHL series. I often use all kinds of different illegal drugs to enhance my enjoyment of gaming. Nothing like playing Doom3 on mushrooms, lol. Mostly I just smoke weed and play xbox, when I have some time for sitting and relaxing and I'm not posting on webforums. I only eat psilocibe mushrooms maybe twice a year but they are a lot of fun and mind-expanding. I used to like watching Natural Born Killers when I took shrooms, or lay in the yard and watch the northern lights. Funny all these drugs and violent movies/video games have never caused me to assault a single person in any way. I abhor real life violence, but nobody is getting hurt by blasting a few animated charcters on a video game.
Albertan Technophile





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 'Net crapped out last night before I could post the following;

Quote:
There should be a great deal more limitations on what themes etc., game makers are permitted to incorporate into a game. Like child porn - it aught to be a law saying 'produce it and/or distribute it and yer going to go away to a prison house - for a very long time'.


Like child porn. Be very very careful, you're equating my hobby with buggering little kids. I'm going to pretend you didnt mean what you said and debate the "Limitations on content" point.

The idea of a nanny state type law is against the charter right to freedom of expression. Such a law would be nothing less than unneccisary censorship. Now heres why;

Games are no longer just for kids. An entire generation of people have grown up playing games, and gaming has grown up with them. There are games targeted for every demographic.

Because of growing pressure from anti-gaming activists,, the industry has set up the ESRB. http://www.esrb.org/index-js.jsp This rating board is much like the Movie industry's rating system, except that it is far more stringent.

Heres where personal responsability comes into play.

I wholeheartedly agree that kids should not be exposed to M rated games. Its very very easy for a parent to keep thier sticky fingers off of them, the ESRB rating is right on the box, prominently displayed.

Its only a piss-poor perent who couldn't spare a glance at the frount of the box to check its suitability for little Jhonny, much less sit down with him and play it with him.

As for a guy like me, at 32 I'll play any game I want. I do like the shooters, they work out my stress nicely (and my slow death to ALS is damn stressful.) and I have a great time with em.

My son plays E-rated games only. At six years old, he's happy with Mario and racing games, even with dad teasing him and nudging the controller.

If you don't like a violent game, don't play it. Just the same as if you don't like a TV show, don't watch it.Its a simple concept.

There are alot of great games out there that are not violent that I think you may like. Like Sid Miers Civilization 4, the game that I'm on now.
Albertan Technophile





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Are there any such 'limits' in games right now? Game creators seem to want to make some games more and more horrific - games like Max Pain - so to what limits in expression does it go?


Did you even play Max Payne? As an example of a horrific shooter its a pretty poor choice. It is however a prime example of a tastefuly done, artistic and very story driven game for adults. The story is about a Cop whose family was murdered by mobsters and his search for who did it, done in the film-noir style of the old detective flicks in the 50s. There is violence, but it isn't overly gory. I played it for the story, which sucked me in right away.

An example I would have used for your point would have been Soldier of fortune. I quit playing that gore fest when a bad guys guts fell out after a shotgun hit. I damn near puked.

As for limits on game content, most game developers are toning down thier content to avoid the ESRB M rating, because stores like Walmart are reluctant to stock them. That cuts sales and that gets their attention right quick.


As for the hand wringing about how aweful it is that adults like violent games and what kind of sick person would need that kind of entertainment, I'll give that the respect it deserves.

None.
:roll:
don muntean





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Albertan Technophile wrote:
Quote:
Are there any such 'limits' in games right now? Game creators seem to want to make some games more and more horrific - games like Max Pain - so to what limits in expression does it go?


Did you even play Max Payne? As an example of a horrific shooter its a pretty poor choice. It is however a prime example of a tastefuly done, artistic and very story driven game for adults. The story is about a Cop whose family was murdered by mobsters and his search for who did it, done in the film-noir style of the old detective flicks in the 50s. There is violence, but it isn't overly gory. I played it for the story, which sucked me in right away.

An example I would have used for your point would have been Soldier of fortune. I quit playing that gore fest when a bad guys guts fell out after a shotgun hit. I damn near puked.

As for limits on game content, most game developers are toning down thier content to avoid the ESRB M rating, because stores like Walmart are reluctant to stock them. That cuts sales and that gets their attention right quick.


As for the hand wringing about how aweful it is that adults like violent games and what kind of sick person would need that kind of entertainment, I'll give that the respect it deserves.

None.
:roll:


I pretty much agree with you - but - i still think that there needs to be 'some laws' to govern this media - i'm not saying that all such games make people violent - of course - each one has their own tastes and - some could even say that 'Naboo Fighter' is violence - as you hint at in your postings - it's all about 'degree' and 'context' - so in that regard - i'm not making any blanket judgements here.

You're correct - there are many people who release stress and minor aggressions in the games [yes even me at times] and - it is even 'good' that there is such an outlet - but - there are others - that are being hard-wired to more violent tendencies as it were - with these sort of games - we need 'a plan' for that.

With respect to TV though - the government needs to do more about the sex and the violence as - it's just too common to hear about certain 'body parts' and all 'that' - at every other moment!

One other example - is that it is very common now over the last five years - for TV adverts to be played at a much louder volume - than the programming - this is very much annoying and the CRTC seems to do nothing about it. Don't they ever watch the TV that they regulate?

Then there is the issue of advertisment saturation - often times it's really bad - especially on the cable specialty channels - we may see the same product adverts 30 to 50 times in a night! I could name a few products and companies - that are really bad for this - but - i don't want to plug their wares here for them!

Have a great one!

P.S. the only game i've ever been able to complete is Naboo Fighter - I find every other game i've played just too darn difficult to get through! :?
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