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kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:58 am    Post subject: Hezbollah and the Pyrrhic victory Reply with quote

Quote:
Many in Lebanon, especially non-Shi'ites, but also some important Shi'ite spokespersons, are calling for an end to the armed phase of Hizbullah's development and its integration into the Lebanese political system, like all other political parties, lest further provocation of Israel will expose Lebanon to even greater devastation in the future. In other words, they are demanding the disarming of Hizbullah.

Muna Fayyad, a Shi'ite professor at the University of Lebanon, and the Mufti of Tyre, Sayyid Ali al-Amin, for example, both questioned the right of Hizbullah to bring disaster on the Shi'ites of Lebanon, by dragging them into an ill considered adventure they never wanted, in the interests of a foreign power like Iran, about whom they were never consulted.

http://www.captainsquartersblo.....008060.php

This just might be the ideal, best case, best possible news for Lebanon. If this leads to positive change for that country and the Middle East, this last war, tragic as it was, will be the best thing that ever happened to them.

Quote:
"The armies separated; and, it is said, Pyrrhus replied to one that gave him joy of his victory that one other such would utterly undo him. For he had lost a great part of the forces he brought with him, and almost all his particular friends and principal commanders; there were no others there to make recruits, and he found the confederates in Italy backward. On the other hand, as from a fountain continually flowing out of the city, the Roman camp was quickly and plentifully filled up with fresh men, not at all abating in courage for the loss they sustained, but even from their very anger gaining new force and resolution to go on with the war."

http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/pyrrhus.htm
Donald Hughes





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many in Lebanon, especially non-Shi'ites, have always wanted Hizbullah to disarm its militant wing. In fact, the integration of Hizbullah into Lebanon's governing coalition seemed like an important step towards this end, perhaps moving towards the militant wing becoming a sort of deputized and independent part of the larger Lebanese military. Once inside this framework, years of peace could have increasingly bound up Hizbullah with the overall military and national state. This probably would have led to the rockets and such being decommissioned or integrated into the state army. There was a perception inside Hizbullah, however, that Israel had been attacking and kidnapping Palestinians in a way that they had to respond with their own kidnapping in hopes of achieving a prisoner exchange and demonstrating their solidarity with the Palestinians. Israel had generally responded to such raids with prisoner exchange in the past and it seemed unlikely that Israel would want to "take the bait" as it were in a way that might make Hizbullah's narrative about being a resistance force seem more legitimate.
biggie





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donald Hughes wrote:
Many in Lebanon, especially non-Shi'ites, have always wanted Hizbullah to disarm its militant wing. In fact, the integration of Hizbullah into Lebanon's governing coalition seemed like an important step towards this end, perhaps moving towards the militant wing becoming a sort of deputized and independent part of the larger Lebanese military. Once inside this framework, years of peace could have increasingly bound up Hizbullah with the overall military and national state. This probably would have led to the rockets and such being decommissioned or integrated into the state army. There was a perception inside Hizbullah, however, that Israel had been attacking and kidnapping Palestinians in a way that they had to respond with their own kidnapping in hopes of achieving a prisoner exchange and demonstrating their solidarity with the Palestinians. Israel had generally responded to such raids with prisoner exchange in the past and it seemed unlikely that Israel would want to "take the bait" as it were in a way that might make Hizbullah's narrative about being a resistance force seem more legitimate.


Or perhaps it was just a way to gain control over the lebanese military as well..

whos to know?
Donald Hughes





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Or perhaps it was just a way to gain control over the lebanese military as well..

whos to know?
Well, one unpopular but effective way to know may be to consider the words of those involved. The positions I described fit well the stated motives of the various actors in Lebanon, which is a nice added bonus.
biggie





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't make a habbit of listening to people who profess a blind hatred for another group of people...

something tells me their motives are questionable...

Not to mention, the reliability of people who support, nay - encourage the wholesale slaughter of civilians is quite questionable as well.
biggie





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interestingly even the wackos over at <a href="http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060914/hezbollah_warcrimes_060914/20060914?hub=World">Amnesty International</a> are questioning Hezbollah's actions ;)

I think its interesting that hezbollah claims its pressure from the US and Israel - They must have missed the past several years worth of condemning the action in Iraq ???
Donald Hughes





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for your initial response: It is not useful to talk in such terms.

Plus, Amnesty International are not "wackos."
biggie





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

your first response:

Please explain... Exactly how isn't it? because you don't believe it to be?

second:

try reading through all their conflicting viewpoints on every single event world-wide...

they most certainly are.
don muntean





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biggie rection wrote:
Interestingly even the wackos over at <a href="http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060914/hezbollah_warcrimes_060914/20060914?hub=World">Amnesty International</a> are questioning Hezbollah's actions ;)

I think its interesting that hezbollah claims its pressure from the US and Israel - They must have missed the past several years worth of condemning the action in Iraq ???


It seems that Amnesty has lost it's good sense to illusion...

What are the reasons that so many 'observers' have failed to understand why such Islamist groups - such as Hezbollah - consistently and systematically choose such cowardly and 'irregular fighting' practices?

Hezbollah was again engaged in the well-known practice of attacking from within and - hiding amongst - the civillian populations.

They use civillians - as an attack shield - knowing that the counter-attacks shall kill more civillians than fighters - thus generating a great deal of false-condemnations of the IDF - from 'other nations' and of course - the U.N. - who cannot see that?

When dealing with such 'irregular fighters' [terrorists] - like Hezbollah - what can be done?

I wonder if Amnesty is invesitgating and condemning that hezbollah loaded all their rockets with ballbearings and shrapnel plates - the U.N. isn't as of yet.

This manner of rocket demonstrates a very direct evidence of the central terrorist aspect of their 'irregular fighting' program. This rocket's primary design is to kill people 'en masse' - not take out structures.

It should be noted Hezbollah's only plan was that these ballbearing and shrapnel loaded rockets were to be directed at civillian population centers - where there were no IDF soldiers 'hiding out' - the way they were - like cowards!

These ballbearing and shrapnel loaded rockets were not directed as a means to attack IDF soldiers - they were directed at civillians - with little chance of affecting the IDF - YES - hezbollah knew this and - that was their heinous plan - kill as many Israeli civillians as possible.

Even now - Hezbollah doesn't intend to disarm - in fact - the IDF had to check the progress of more weapons being moved from Iran through Syria - to arm hezbollah further - right after the ceasefire took effect!

Is it any wonder that as of yet - few nations - have come forward to engage in the planned 'international force' on the border - why aren't they stepping up?

Of course - it must be a security issue - the issue being - how many of the Lebanese troops are either hezbollah members or otherwise sympathetic to hezbollah? Who can expect an international force - to patrol under those circumstances?

Amnesty doesn't understand that terrorists are 'irregular fighters' - nor do they understand the realities which 'that' imposes on the situation.
Donald Hughes





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hizbullah believes that it is deeply integrated within parts of Lebanese society, particularly in the southern Shi'a regions and some parts and suburbs of Beirut. From an overall view of the organization, which includes extensive "Construction Jihad" sorts of operations as well, this is undeniably true. For this reason they see their militia wing as living with and among the people of Lebanon, and trying to defend these people, so it seems nonsensical to them to claim they are hiding among civilians. To them it would be like asking the IDF to leave Israeli cities to fight in an open field or something, it is nonsensical. Their attacks against Israelis are also supposed to simply raise the cost of Israel's policy of occupation and bombardment in a general way, which is identical to say bombing a city during World War II. These are war crimes that shouldn't be accepted, but they have a logic to them beyond "we're evil madmen who love watching people die."
FF_Canuck





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donald,

I'm agreed that Hizbullah uses these tactics with strategic goals in mind, but I've no doubt that they really do enjoy killing Israelis, either.

Also, having military bases in your cities is one thing - refusing to wear uniforms, and actively placing your assets amongst civilians as you're being targeted is another. They purposely attempt to draw Israeli fire onto civilians, hospitals, and international organzations like the UN or Red Cross (though I'll grant this is sometimes done with the approval of the 'shield').
Donald Hughes





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seriously doubt that they intentionally try and draw fire to civilian targets on their "side". I would assume that their intent is rather to seek areas that they believe Israel would never fire at. That they are proven wrong is a tragedy for all concerned. That they are capable of being proud of their attacks on Israeli cities is part of the standard belief of such wars - that the other "side" is an abstract bloc that must be attacked in a way that hurts them economically. Since, of course, they believe that the economic base of the country helps support the military apparatus. This was also the more military-minded logic of the September 11th attacks, of course, in addition to the terroristic goals.
FF_Canuck





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That they are capable of being proud of their attacks on Israeli cities is part of the standard belief of such wars - that the other "side" is an abstract bloc that must be attacked in a way that hurts them economically.


This is also likely. The notion that they enjoy successful attacks for this reason, and the notion that they take pleasure in the deaths of 'infidel' civilians, are not mutually exclusive. Do you disagree?
Donald Hughes





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The notion that they enjoy successful attacks for this reason, and the notion that they take pleasure in the deaths of 'infidel' civilians, are not mutually exclusive. Do you disagree?
I think that we in the West tend to dwell on the idea that all "infidels" are fair game to generalize the threat to ourselves and legitimate military responses. In reality I think much of this language could be categorized as the sort of propagandistic language used by soldiers and populists during war - like Americans calling Vietnamese "gooks." Sure there are a few hundred people, maybe, who are just the sort of criminals that float to the top during times of crisis and have a full terroristic ideology. But the vast majority of the rest of militants, in any country in the region, just think of themselves as soldiers or revolutionaries against one occupation or another. It is fairly easy to predict behaviour using that measure, instead of grouping everyone into some giant zombie horde.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Amnesty International has accused Lebanon's Hizbollah movement of committing war crimes by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians with its rockets.

So, it looks like it is finally becoming official; the leaders and membership of Hezbollah are war criminals. There actually seems to be a lot of positive developments coming out of Lebanon in the aftermath of the war. Being internationally recognized for the despicable people that they are has to be a serious PR blow to Nassrallah and the rest.

http://www.stevejanke.com/archives/196659.php#more
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Hezbollah and the Pyrrhic victory

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