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kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fatah does not want to work with Israel, they do not want peace. That is a lie that they foster. What they want is enough time to get strong enough to destroy Israel, and every Jew in the world. This is what they say on their TV stations, this is what they teach in their schools. Fatah at most wants a prolonged cease fire, never peace. Check the PLO constitution, or whatever you call it. The destruction of Israel has never been taken out of there.

Their whole culture is based upon "resistance". What will they be resisting of the made peace?
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plus, they have not lived up to any agreement they have ever made, so even if they did want peace, they are completely incompetent and could never deliver it.
palomino_pony





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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephen wrote:
redhatmamma wrote:
Well, it would be nice if they just killed each other, but I'm betting they'll (Hamas) will consolidate their hold totally then start in on Israel. I'm not sure if Fatah can stand up to Hamas, they are in trouble now.

I wonder how long before they throw Abbas off a rooftop?


The problem with letting them 'kill each other' is that a lot of innocents get killed in the process.

Fatah is the relatively secular alternative that at least has a desire to work with Israel. Hamas has called for Israel's destruction. I'm certain that Israel and the US have been supplying Fatah with means to maintain order and security (ie. arms) and of course, this has to be kept relatively quiet so that the Palestinian 'street' doesn't turn again the Western-favoured Fatah in Palestine.

Similarly, Egypt's secular but dictatorial government has been generally pro-Fatah (if I remember correctly) but the Muslim Brotherhood opposition movement in Egypt has favoured Hamas.

Fatah is the preferred partner of Israel and the US while Hamas is the favoured partner of Syria and Iran.

I'm still sorting this out so someone please correct me if I'm wrong.


Isn't Fatah's emblem 2 rifles (and a grenade?) superimposed over a map of Israel? Even their name ("conquest") hints of their ultimate goal. I think kwlafayette is correct on his assement. Hamas is just Fatah in a hurry.
Stephen





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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

palomino_pony wrote:
Stephen wrote:
redhatmamma wrote:
Well, it would be nice if they just killed each other, but I'm betting they'll (Hamas) will consolidate their hold totally then start in on Israel. I'm not sure if Fatah can stand up to Hamas, they are in trouble now.

I wonder how long before they throw Abbas off a rooftop?


The problem with letting them 'kill each other' is that a lot of innocents get killed in the process.

Fatah is the relatively secular alternative that at least has a desire to work with Israel. Hamas has called for Israel's destruction. I'm certain that Israel and the US have been supplying Fatah with means to maintain order and security (ie. arms) and of course, this has to be kept relatively quiet so that the Palestinian 'street' doesn't turn again the Western-favoured Fatah in Palestine.

Similarly, Egypt's secular but dictatorial government has been generally pro-Fatah (if I remember correctly) but the Muslim Brotherhood opposition movement in Egypt has favoured Hamas.

Fatah is the preferred partner of Israel and the US while Hamas is the favoured partner of Syria and Iran.

I'm still sorting this out so someone please correct me if I'm wrong.


Isn't Fatah's emblem 2 rifles (and a grenade?) superimposed over a map of Israel? Even their name ("conquest") hints of their ultimate goal. I think kwlafayette is correct on his assement. Hamas is just Fatah in a hurry.


hmm... I'm still sorting it all out...

I note that Canada is restoring funding aid to the Palestinian government and has congratulated the new Prime Minister and cabinet appointed by Abbas.
palomino_pony





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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephen wrote:
hmm... I'm still sorting it all out...

I note that Canada is restoring funding aid to the Palestinian government and has congratulated the new Prime Minister and cabinet appointed by Abbas.


The whole region confuses me as well...
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is confusing on purpose. Both Hamas, and Fatah, and other groups in the region are masters of press manipulation. They issue conflicting press releases, use obscure language. The thing about lefties is that they want to believe in these people, so they give them the benefit of the doubt. Lefties are generally good people that way. So you have a bunch of people in the West wanting to believe that peace is possible, wanting to believe that these groups are composed of basically good people. Meanwhile the English statements do not mesh with their Arabic statements, their actions do mesh with the deals they negotiated, and the continue to target children. I have come to the conclusion over the years that they are basically bad people in control over there. They have used the education system to indoctrinate from an early age. Children more radical than their parents.

The press sometimes talks about a cycle of violence. The only mistake they make is that the cycle is entirely sustained by the Arab and Palestinian side.
FascistLibertarian





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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The only mistake they make is that the cycle is entirely sustained by the Arab and Palestinian side.

Yeah your right, its entirely one sided. The Jews are not to blame at all in any way shape or form. That whole middle east thing, entirely black and white, not grey at all.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for trying to contribute. Israel is pretty much blameless, if you look at the history. You can't blame them for wanting their own country. You can't blame them for not wanting to be exterminated. You can blame them for wanting peace and security. They have tried land for peace, they lost the land and got more war. They have tried diplomacy, with Arafat and others. They got agreements that were not lived up to. They tried withdrawing and giving the Palestinians a chance to live like human beings, and they again got more war.

Seems to me it is fairly black and white, at least for adults who can articulate complete arguments.

PS. I can see that apart from the sarcasm, which you are good at, you seem to be a good person. You want to believe that both sides share blame, because then there would be a compromise that would allow both sides to live in peace. That it is mistakes and misunderstandings that have caused all this senseless bloodshed. The very idea that no compromise is possible, that one side will not stop until the other is destroyed is alien to you. You don't want to accept that there is evil in the world, and that it is people who create it.

I have observed this conflict for my entire adult life, more than 15 years now. I have watched one side make concessions, one side give up land, money resources, while the other simply used those concessions to try to force even more. I have watched Israel fight for its very existence every day, I have watched Israel show incredible restraint in the face of inhuman cruelty. I have watched the Palestinians using press vehicles, ambulances, the media, rockets, guns, and bombs indiscriminately against Israel. I have come to the conclusion that the Palestinians will never accept Israel, let alone peace with Israel.


Last edited by kwlafayette on Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
Stephen





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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FascistLibertarian wrote:
Quote:
The only mistake they make is that the cycle is entirely sustained by the Arab and Palestinian side.

Yeah your right, its entirely one sided. The Jews are not to blame at all in any way shape or form. That whole middle east thing, entirely black and white, not grey at all.


you should not determine fault by ethnicity. Did you mean to use a different word?

Neither "Jews" nor "Arabs" are collectively responsible for conflict on either side.
SDC
Guest








PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
I have come to the conclusion that the Palestinians will never accept Israel, let alone peace with Israel.


What's more, they freely ADMIT this; any "peace" agreement they agree to has only ever been a temporary cease-fire, to allow them to build up again and take another shot at Israel. So, if the choice is between a pack of genocidal madmen who are open in their desire to annihilate Israel, and a pack of genocidal madmen who only want a temporary truce before they resume their attempt to annihilate Israel, let them kill each other.
truth4freedom





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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
Who is backing Fatah militarily though? I know Fatah has the support of most of the international community but who is arming them. Hamas has the backing of Iran and Syria.


Saudi Arabia, our 'ally', just got busted funneling millions of $ into Hamas 'charities'. I am not entirely sure on Fatah as of yet. I think mostly the backers of both governments are competing for the chance to wipe Israel off the map. Hatred of the Jews, God's chosen people, does not stop with muslim swine as we so eloquently witnessed during WWII.
don muntean





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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:47 am    Post subject: No mercy... Reply with quote

Hamas are big demons [and Fatah are not far behind] and I hope that the world realizes that they are wasting time talking about them and - not dealing with them and their bent program - just like with Iran and Syria.

Yes there shall be a future war and the west better forget the false sentiment of 'peace' with such groups and nations as that shall be their downfall - their defeat.

Just as God once admonished His people to 'show no mercy' to the Ameleks that is what He is expecting of the world - when checking the progress and activities of nasty nazi-like groups such as - Hamas.

Make no mistake and - show them NO mercy.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems odd to me that both Saudi Arabia and Iran would be backing Hamas. Iran is going for regional supremacy, and Saudi Arabia is a clear competitor to them in that regard. It seems more likely that this is a proxy war between the mullahs and the Saudis. Regardless, both sides are clearly getting arms from somewhere.

I heard that Fatah had a stockpile of US stuff that Hamas found and commandeered. Something about they were trying to strengthen the position of the PA, get rule of law going, that type of thing.
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Hamas versus Fatah

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