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Craig
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:21 am    Post subject: What happened to name, rank, and number? Reply with quote

When you sign up for military service you commit to fight for your country (and if necessary to die for it). These British soldiers failed to fight (they threw up the white flag because they didn't think could win). Can you imagine if our soldiers had the same attitude at Vimy? And after these cowards were captured they served Iranian interests by caving to every demand made on them.

My grandfather's generation was the greatest generation. Clearly today's militaries are plagued with cowardly enrollment.
biggie





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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, I think it's pretty sad that those soldiers were so quick to flop and give in to the Iranians. There's something to be said for a little bit of honour.

Although I don't see a problem with their surrender, they should have kept their mouths shut while they were in custody...


Last edited by biggie on Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:44 am; edited 1 time in total
Cool Blue





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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They were operating under UN mandate; they probably had orders not to fight back.
biggie





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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool Blue wrote:
They were operating under UN mandate; they probably had orders not to fight back.


Yeah, I have heard that one of the biggest part of the problems was that operating procedure didn't allow them to just fight back without first gaining permission.

One of the things that has plagued the war in Iraq since day 1
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:44 pm    Post subject: Re: What happened to name, rank, and number? Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
When you sign up for military service you commit to fight for your country (and if necessary to die for it). These British soldiers failed to fight (they threw up the white flag because they didn't think could win). Can you imagine if our soldiers had the same attitude at Vimy? And after these cowards were captured they served Iranian interests by caving to every demand made on them.

My grandfather's generation was the greatest generation. Clearly today's militaries are plagued with cowardly enrollment.


I think what Brits did there was disgraceful and dishonorable...
FascistLibertarian





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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is real easy to sit here and say they are cowards when we do not have to face any danger outselves, the British were kept isolated from each other for most of the ordeal and had alot of psychological pressure applied to them.

That being said think how fast they would crumble if the Iranians treated them the way the people we capture are treated in abu ghraib, fake drownings etc.

Some of the bravest Canadians ever were the guys in Hong Kong who smuggled out information and even sabotaged Japanese infastructure they were working on as POW's. Compared to the Japanese the Iranians would be a cake walk.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might be easy, but it is not wrong.
biggie





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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FascistLibertarian wrote:
It is real easy to sit here and say they are cowards when we do not have to face any danger outselves, the British were kept isolated from each other for most of the ordeal and had alot of psychological pressure applied to them.

That being said think how fast they would crumble if the Iranians treated them the way the people we capture are treated in abu ghraib, fake drownings etc.

Some of the bravest Canadians ever were the guys in Hong Kong who smuggled out information and even sabotaged Japanese infastructure they were working on as POW's. Compared to the Japanese the Iranians would be a cake walk.


Give me a break; It's not particularly easy to say this. We all understand the gravity of their situation, but there are a couple things at play here.

These are men and women who have sworn their lives to the service of their country, and at the slightest threat they crumbled and propped up the Iranian propoganda machine. Whos to say what kind of extremely important information could have been extracted from these troops?

I'm sorry, but when you are captured, it is your duty to your country to protect it's national interests, not their own. The reality of it is that many of the true heroes who died in POW camps did so because they refused to go against their own country. If you're not willing to put your country's interests ahead of yours, you shouldn't be joining the military.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why would you be sorry for saying any of that? it sounds accurate to me, you are not cursing or swearing, spelling looks good. As far as I can tell, you have nothing to be sorry about.
mrsocko





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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
My grandfather's generation was the greatest generation. Clearly today's militaries are plagued with cowardly enrollment.


Just read an article where the women soldier talked about the physcological "warfare" these people were under. Said she thought they were measuring her for a coffin.

Are these people not trained in what to expect when captured. She said she was afraid she would not see her young daughter again so she folded like superman on wash day. Said anything the Iranians wanted. I'm sure her daughter will be proud of that someday.

What's a young mother doing in Iraq anyway. Of course she's going to cave so she can see her child again. I bet she is happy with her choice of career now.
FascistLibertarian





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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I have been able to find on the internet it seems likely that they were not given enough training in what to do if they were captured. The MOD is understandably not commenting at all on the level of training they give to their troops.

It really varies alot from country to country, Japan gave their troops no training because of their death before surrendering policy.

Seeing them thanking Iran and joking with the prez was pretty gross :(
biggie





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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
Why would you be sorry for saying any of that? it sounds accurate to me, you are not cursing or swearing, spelling looks good. As far as I can tell, you have nothing to be sorry about.


lol, well as long as the spelling is good 8)

the I'm sorry was more like a "I'm sorry you don't understand"... I am not sorry for saying any of that.
Craig
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FascistLibertarian wrote:
It is real easy to sit here and say they are cowards when we do not have to face any danger outselves, the British were kept isolated from each other for most of the ordeal and had alot of psychological pressure applied to them.


Quote:
Compared to the Japanese the Iranians would be a cake walk.


Aren't these two statements contradictory??? First you say it must have been tough because the Iranians applied "psychological pressure" to them and then you say the compared with past incidents the Iranians would have been a cake walk.

In any case. Here is the point...

I have stresses in my job. Am I tortured? Not really. It's a tough job. I spent 8 years in post secondary institutions to land this job. On the other hand I could have joined the military. Had I joined the military I would expect to be trained to be TOUGH. I would expect to have my soul turned into stone. I would expect to become a WARRIOR. I would EXPECT to become a soldier. I would expect to become what past generations of soldiers were - SOMEONE WHO WOULDN'T CAVE TO PSYCHOLOGICAL PRESSURE.

We all make choices in our lives. Their caving is partly their fault, and partly the fault of a lax military training regimen that allowed them to enter combat as uniformed civilians instead of warriors.
FascistLibertarian





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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The whole thing is on a spectrum of how people will act in a given situation. Some people will always act bravely while others will become collaborators. Saying people were tougher back in time is a lie, we had less idea of what they were going through and the issue of how our grandfathers generation was affected, mental health, was not an important part of the narrative until post vietnam.
I saw some pictures of those British, not all of them looked happy and were smiling for the cameras. I have no idea what % of these people will experince PTSD symptoms or what exactly they were subjected to.
The rate of PTSD in Canadian Hong Kong Veterans probabaly approached 100%. During the POW experience industrialized society was torn away and a primitive existence prevailed. The Japanese engaged in prolonged physical and psychological abuse, although some did try and help POW’s, the experience was extremely negative. Some POW’s, especially the senior officers were the very model of professionalism even while being subjected to the worst of humiliations, others became Japanese confederated and turned traitor for better treatment.
These people were traitors, but when they came back they were usually just humilated and let go. The others who were or are there can judge these "cowards" but for the rest of us to do so is extremely disrespectful.
biggie





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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FascistLibertarian wrote:
The others who were or are there can judge these "cowards" but for the rest of us to do so is extremely disrespectful.


No it isn't... not in the slightest.
None of us have any lack of respect for the gravity of the situation they were in;

that doesn't mean we have to be silent about their actions.
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