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winchry





Joined: 22 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:08 pm    Post subject: Ethanol as bad as Gas? Reply with quote

Quote:
An unpublished federal report appears to undermine the belief that commercially available ethanol-blended fuel produces cleaner emissions than regular gasoline.


http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manit.....sions.html

This report shows ethanol might acually not be a good alternative to gas. Does this mean we have wasted millions developing a useless fuel souce? or are the benefit still going to pay off after we run out of the earths oil supply?


Last edited by winchry on Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
Craig
Site Admin




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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to think that the most important benefit of ethanol is fuel self-sufficiency. Who cares about CO2.
SFrank85





Joined: 03 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CO2 is mostly water vapour anyways.
Mac





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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
I'd like to think that the most important benefit of ethanol is fuel self-sufficiency. Who cares about CO2.

Exactly. Ethanol is a renewable resource. Instead of trying to pretend it's gasoline for internal combustion, we need to examine it's unique qualities and develop engines specifically for ethanol.

Ummm, SFrank85, CO2 isn't water vapour. It's carbon dioxide. Water vapour is hydrogen dioxide. Two different things.

-Mac
biggie





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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree,

renewable fuels aren't an answer to environmental concerns; but they may just be an answer(or part of one) to our fossil fuel dependence.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ethanol and other organic alcohols can be used in much higher compression engines without fear of pre-ignition. Upping the compression ups the efficiency. Maybe the Miller cycle will be the cycle of the future? Possibly the Atkinson cycle would be the one that is best for ethanol? At least auto companies will actually get to try some new things for a while.
Mac





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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aren't they already using Atkinson cycle engines in hybrids?

I was thinking more of Brayton cycle. With the improvements made in ceramics and turbine technology, we should be able to use a small turbine which reuses the heat of combustion to generate electricity for hybrids.

-Mac
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are so many cycles out there to try, my point was that the auto companies will have some new stuff to show us. No one has ever actually used a Bourke cycle engine for anything of significance for example. Maybe all these engine designs and different cycles will finally catch on.
Mac





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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
Maybe all these engine designs and different cycles will finally catch on.

Exactly. Although I don't generally approve of government intervention in private industry, I could support a public/private partnership to develop a clean and efficient engine specifically designed for renewable fuels.

-Mac
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading something at Andrew Coyne today. He was quoting a report that said it would take 36% of Canada's farm land to get a 10% biofuel component in all fuel sold in Canada. Sounds like a lot of farmland. Maybe I can actually go farming if the price of grain gets high enough to make a living?
Mac





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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those numbers seem pretty high... but I'm not contrary to giving Canadian farmers another market.

-Mac
TealTories





Joined: 26 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biggie wrote:
I agree,

renewable fuels aren't an answer to environmental concerns; but they may just be an answer(or part of one) to our fossil fuel dependence.


Exactly renewable fuels is a way to slowly reduce our fossil fuel dependance.
Its also a new income stream.
Wallace





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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biofuels are bad for the environment
http://www.usatoday.com/weathe.....tudy_N.htm

Biofuels raise food prices
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html

It is a bad idea. The government should stop trying to solve these problems and just let the free market decide what would be appropriate.
Big Tuna





Joined: 28 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wallace wrote:
Biofuels are bad for the environment
http://www.usatoday.com/weathe.....tudy_N.htm

Biofuels raise food prices
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html

It is a bad idea. The government should stop trying to solve these problems and just let the free market decide what would be appropriate.


Yes from an environmental standpoint biofuels aren't very good. The work it takes to harvest and turn it into fuels creates more greenhouse gases then what you're not creating by using the biofuels.

I'm not sure how the free market is going to solve this problem. If the farmers can get more selling their crops for fuel won't they just keep doing that?

A side question for Wallace and others who are not just for smaller government but for no-government/total free market. How do you feel about monopolies? (sorry maybe this should be another thread).
gc





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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Tuna wrote:
I'm not sure how the free market is going to solve this problem. If the farmers can get more selling their crops for fuel won't they just keep doing that?

IIRC, the use of ethanol in fuels is both mandated and subsidized. Get rid of the requirement for ethanol in gasoline, and remove subsidies, then let the free market take care of things.
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