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Assuming there was a leadership convention, would you vote for an Atheist to lead the Conservative Party?
Yes
25%
 25%  [ 12 ]
No
19%
 19%  [ 9 ]
I vote for policy, not religion
55%
 55%  [ 26 ]
Total Votes : 47

Author Message
Craig
Site Admin




Joined: 29 Aug 2006
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votes: 36

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TealTories wrote:
Craig wrote:
TealTories wrote:
If I accept the premise that there is a reason for our being but no greater purpose that is my beleif. And you should respect that and not tell me it is a cop out.


My opinion is that your opinion is a cop out. You should respect that. I respect you. I don't respect all of your opinions.


Sure :roll:


That was worth the post. I feel like I'm in liberal land. Don't want to offend anyone by telling them their opinion is intellectually weak.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Craig
Site Admin




Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 4415
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votes: 36

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I ask you the question...

"How did the universe come into existance"

And you tell me...

"It is because it is"

THAT is a cop out. That is intellectual laziness. Sorry if that hurts your feelings.
biggie





Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1738
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votes: 10
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
biggie wrote:
Cop out nothing, at least i have the balls to admit when I just don't know..


What happened to respectful discussion :roll:

You didn't say that you don't know. You said that you think we don't have a purpose. If you said you didn't know I wouldn't have called it a cop out. I would have said you have balls.


I never said we don't have a purpose...

I said that it is fully possible we do not.
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
Reputation: 131.2
votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cerl7011
Quote:
That's very true...any human that thinks they can totally and correctly know the ultimate deity is very naive. No human can ever know if God exists because there is no real proof...sure one good thing my happen...but then 50 bad things happen...theists always blame this on the "devil"...another thing I have a hard time understanding


That's not true at all. Any human that does not think they can know God is missing out on the greatest experience a human can have. There is plenty of proof, but of course proof is in the eyes of the beholder. Let's just say there is no proof you will accept.

And theists do not always blame the devil. God is in control.

I know God exists.
TealTories





Joined: 26 Oct 2006
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votes: 1
Location: Calgary

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
TealTories wrote:
Craig wrote:
TealTories wrote:
If I accept the premise that there is a reason for our being but no greater purpose that is my beleif. And you should respect that and not tell me it is a cop out.


My opinion is that your opinion is a cop out. You should respect that. I respect you. I don't respect all of your opinions.


Sure :roll:


That was worth the post. I feel like I'm in liberal land. Don't want to offend anyone by telling them their opinion is intellectually weak.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Its not that I dont want to offend, there is no point in debating someone who's mind is closed on the subject.
My point is so simple I beleive it quite possible there is no divine reason for our existance.
All you have done is call it a cop out and told me I am acting like a liberal.
You havent provided me with evidence (to me the bible isnt evidence) that I am or could be wrong.
Azimech





Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 75
Reputation: 10

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be more likely to vote for a conservative if that person was an atheist.

Religious belief is a form of superstition. Other factors being equal, good governance is more likely when politicians are not driven or encumbered by superstition.
cerl7011





Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 334
Reputation: 26.6Reputation: 26.6Reputation: 26.6

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
cerl7011
Quote:
That's very true...any human that thinks they can totally and correctly know the ultimate deity is very naive. No human can ever know if God exists because there is no real proof...sure one good thing my happen...but then 50 bad things happen...theists always blame this on the "devil"...another thing I have a hard time understanding


That's not true at all. Any human that does not think they can know God is missing out on the greatest experience a human can have. There is plenty of proof, but of course proof is in the eyes of the beholder. Let's just say there is no proof you will accept.

And theists do not always blame the devil. God is in control.

I know God exists.


Alright...all good points...I assure you, I am not missing out on any great experience...it is true that no human can ever know God, because this person/thing is the ultimate reality...it is supposed to be the #1 perfect thing in the universe...how can any human ever correctly and ever fully know about this thing...

And if God is in control, why did the Holocaust happen?...9/11?...The endless killings, rapes, abuse...why wouldn't this compassionate being just let people be happy for once?

erl
Craig
Site Admin




Joined: 29 Aug 2006
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votes: 36

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TealTories wrote:
My point is so simple I beleive it quite possible there is no divine reason for our existance.


Urg. I called biggie's statement that there may be NO reason for our existance a copout. Now you are changing it to "no divine reason". Whatever.
Craig
Site Admin




Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 4415
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votes: 36

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Azimech wrote:
Religious belief is a form of superstition. Other factors being equal, good governance is more likely when politicians are not driven or encumbered by superstition.


And you know this how?
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
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votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cerl7011 wrote
Quote:
Alright...all good points...I assure you, I am not missing out on any great experience


Well I've had the experience and you haven't and I can tell you you it is great.

I had started going to my present church in about 1991. At the time we were about 30 people. One Sunday 3 people came to church. They turned out to be recovering Alcoholics/drug addicts. They received prayer that day. They started to bring their friends to our church and our pastors house.

I was praying with two of them one day and noticed that one guy had his hand on his friends back and suddenly quickly removed it. After we finished praying he asked his friend if he got it. His friend said "yah man it was awesome". I asked, what are you guys talking about? They said they were talking about the "Spiritual Poke". I guess when you inject heroin they call it the poke. They were comparing the power of God coming upon them to a poke of heroin. I asked my friend why he removed his hand from the other guys back and he said that he could feel the poke coming to him through his friend and so he removed his hand cause he didn't want to drain the poke out of his friend. He wanted his friend to get blasted.

I have never done heroin but I have been blasted by God's spirit and it is amazing.

Quote:
And if God is in control, why did the Holocaust happen?...9/11?...The endless killings, rapes, abuse...why wouldn't this compassionate being just let people be happy for once?


I'm pretty happy. Most of my friends and family are happy. Sorry your not.

God created this world and Man told him to screw off. That's why he has left man to his own devices. Pain and suffering draw people to God.
If your parents told you not to do drugs and you told them - screw off I'll live my life the way I want to, would you blame them if you became an addict, robbed banks to finance your habit and killed a man when you where robbing the bank. Blaming God for the Holocaust and every bad thing in this world is the ultimate copout. Man did it, not God.
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
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votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's some sampling of the atheist/agnostic view that God doesn't exist or cannot be known.

Quote:
it is true that no human can ever know God, because this person/thing is the ultimate reality


Quote:
You havent provided me with evidence (to me the bible isnt evidence) that I am or could be wrong.


Quote:
I never said we don't have a purpose...

I said that it is fully possible we do not.


Quote:
any human that thinks they can totally and correctly know the ultimate deity is very naive. No human can ever know if God exists because there is no real proof


Quote:
If I accept the premise that there is a reason for our being but no greater purpose that is my beleif. And you should respect that and not tell me it is a cop out.


Quote:
It is beyond our current knowledge base.


Quote:
Any one who says that they have enough evidence to prove any number of the possible hypothosis is lying and or misguided.


Quote:
I dont know why some people are afraid to say "I dont know".


I originally said I would vote for a Consevative atheist. I want to change my vote. You guys should be speech writers for Stephane Dion.
cerl7011





Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 334
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
I'm pretty happy. Most of my friends and family are happy. Sorry your not.
God created this world and Man told him to screw off. That's why he has left man to his own devices. Pain and suffering draw people to God.
If your parents told you not to do drugs and you told them - screw off I'll live my life the way I want to, would you blame them if you became an addict, robbed banks to finance your habit and killed a man when you where robbing the bank. Blaming God for the Holocaust and every bad thing in this world is the ultimate copout. Man did it, not God.


Ouch...don't worry...I'm happy and so are most people I know...but what about people in Sudan? North Korea? Bangladesh? Zimbabwe?...the list goes on and on...the people that live there are under brutal dictatorships...
Why doesn't this all loving and all knowing God step in and help us?...To me, this God is a cruel and unloving character who will allow people to die even though he supposedly has the power to let them live...
This God has healed the sick...well, only some of the sick...a few sick people get better because "of God"...what about all the other people who are good Christians and die of Cancer...are raped...are murdered...
I don't blame God for the Holocaust...I blame him for not stopping it...if he really did care about us...enough to send his son down to earth...enough to create us...then he would actually care about us! If this God exists, then let him come down to earth and stop the wars, the terror, the pain and suffering! So what if humans "told God to screw off"...(which I don't get because most of the world is religious...)...if this God loved us, he would help us...thats that...

erl
biggie





Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1738
Reputation: 44Reputation: 44Reputation: 44Reputation: 44
votes: 10
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:

I originally said I would vote for a Consevative atheist. I want to change my vote. You guys should be speech writers for Stephane Dion.


Give me a break...
that's quite possibly the stupidest thing I've ever wasted time reading...
and I read Jason Cherniak's blog..

If you want to preach the ideals of intollerance, that's your choice - but you're being just as bad as any militant atheist.

You don't have to believe what we say, but you shouldn't expect us to believe what you say.
I've been more than accepting of all the viewpoints here; I have endeavoured to stand up for both sides because I think that both make valid points... I may take what theists say with a grain of salt, but certainly this same grain is taken with the atheists.

Of course, im not offended.. Im not an atheist ;)
biggie





Joined: 06 Sep 2006
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votes: 10
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cerl7011 wrote:
mrsocko wrote:
I'm pretty happy. Most of my friends and family are happy. Sorry your not.
God created this world and Man told him to screw off. That's why he has left man to his own devices. Pain and suffering draw people to God.
If your parents told you not to do drugs and you told them - screw off I'll live my life the way I want to, would you blame them if you became an addict, robbed banks to finance your habit and killed a man when you where robbing the bank. Blaming God for the Holocaust and every bad thing in this world is the ultimate copout. Man did it, not God.


Ouch...don't worry...I'm happy and so are most people I know...but what about people in Sudan? North Korea? Bangladesh? Zimbabwe?...the list goes on and on...the people that live there are under brutal dictatorships...
Why doesn't this all loving and all knowing God step in and help us?...To me, this God is a cruel and unloving character who will allow people to die even though he supposedly has the power to let them live...
This God has healed the sick...well, only some of the sick...a few sick people get better because "of God"...what about all the other people who are good Christians and die of Cancer...are raped...are murdered...
I don't blame God for the Holocaust...I blame him for not stopping it...if he really did care about us...enough to send his son down to earth...enough to create us...then he would actually care about us! If this God exists, then let him come down to earth and stop the wars, the terror, the pain and suffering! So what if humans "told God to screw off"...(which I don't get because most of the world is religious...)...if this God loved us, he would help us...thats that...

erl


Try to think of god as a force of balance... I think that would provide some insight to why the argument of god doing nothing to stop bad events is hardly valid.
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
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votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Give me a break...
that's quite possibly the stupidest thing I've ever wasted time reading...
and I read Jason Cherniak's blog..


I was just trying to be funny. my humour doesn't translate to blogging sometimes I guess.

Quote:
If you want to preach the ideals of intollerance, that's your choice - but you're being just as bad as any militant atheist.


I didn't realize that sticking up for the existence of God was intolerance. When I say I know God exists and people come back with,"there is no way you can know or it is arrogant to assume you can know, I deem that intolerance.

Quote:
You don't have to believe what we say, but you shouldn't expect us to believe what you say.


But the only thing you guys are saying is that you don't know or that there is no way to know God. Maybe your experience of seeking God out has produced nothing. Tell me about it, I want to know your experiences. But if you haven't attempted to seek him out why should I respect an opinion that is not based on anything I would consider evidence.
Especially when my experience says otherwise. Look at Don's horrible experience and the way God has helped him through all these years. Theres proof of God's existence.

I asked for proof that God doesn't exists and I get nothing. All I get are someones idea of the things God should be and since he is not these things then he can't exists.
I give you examples of how God has moved in my life and you now say that I shouldn't expect anyone to believe it. The flip side of which is that I should expect people to think of me as a liar.

Anyways sorry for reinforcing the stereotype that Christians are intolerant. Won't happen again.
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