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Have you ever smoked marijuana?
Yes
60%
 60%  [ 21 ]
No
40%
 40%  [ 14 ]
Total Votes : 35

Author Message
Stephen





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 645
Reputation: 72.9
votes: 5
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:34 pm    Post subject: The legalization or decriminalization of marijuana Reply with quote

I'd like to start a discussion on conservative (and other) thoughts regarding the legal status of marijuana in Canada.

You can read my thoughts on it here

Also, please answer the poll above.
Donald Hughes





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 166
Reputation: 16.2Reputation: 16.2
Location: Libertarian socialism

PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I support legalizing the possession of all drugs and releasing/pardoning all non-violent drug offenders from prison as a minimum step.

I actually think a consistent argument can be made that the production of drugs should be on a non-profit basis, so that you would have say LSD clubs providing the drugs for people interested in psychedelics but would limit the potential for large for-profit operations. The core of this argument is similar to the idea that we have laws that you can't sell alcohol to drunk people. Some for-profit production would still exist but nowhere near the current scale of illegal production and distribution.

Also, decriminalization was a bit of a joke. Outside a few localities, most police already turn a blind eye to marijuana and are reluctant to charge people with possession. I mean, sometimes, since police are given immense and arbitrary authority... but that's another story. If you decriminalize it, penalties for marijuana possession may actually go up because in addition to confiscation almost everyone would also get the fine. More importantly, the same bills routinely look for tighter controls on possession of larger amounts, production and distribution, instead of say making it legal to own and tend to your own cannabis plant. Decriminalization is usually a way for a person to take on a progressive veneer when they still support the drug war.

Naturally, if we hope to disentangle ourselves from the drug war, we should stop assisting and participating in the "hot" parts of the drug wars still ongoing in places like Latin America and Afghanistan.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
Reputation: 156.2Reputation: 156.2
votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some drugs are too dangerous to be legal. What is that popular drup nowadays, crystal meth or somthing? I have heard it has immediate and permanent physical effect on the structure of your brain. I for one do not want to work past retirement to pay for a generation of brain damaged druggies who cannot care for themselevs. Some chemicals have less effect on your body, or no permanent effect at all.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its kind of hard to believe that on a conservative blog over 70% of the poll takers admit to smoking pot. How can that be? Why would you vote for a party that advocates mandatory minimums for drug offences would be the logical question to ask yourselves. The fiberal decrim bill was crap and I'm glad it was defeated. Glad to see Paul Martin gone too, never liked that guy. As much as I disliked Martin, however I would sure have rather had him as prime minister than Harper. Why is it that everybody in Canada seems to realize that the drug war is assanine and counter-productive yet we continue to tow the American's drug war line?

You should know that technically Cannabis cultivation and possession are already legal in Canada since the supreme court deemed the laws unconstitutional. The courts tried to strike the law back up after making some changes to the medical exemption rules but the courts have no such power. POLCOA is an acronym for Parliament ONLY legislates, Courts only Abrogate. The charter states that any law deemed unconstitional is null and void from its inception. Parliament has enacted no new Cannabis Laws since Terry Parker had the law deemed unconstitutional. Google John C Turmel for the whole story.

Eventually the courts and parliament will be forced to admit it.

Everybody has the right to their CHOICE of treatment. I use pot for my severe arthritis and I'll be damned if I will let Stephen Harper or his sidekick pastor toews stop me. What makes me even sicker is the health minister owning 1/4 of the shares of a pharma company which is a total conflict of interest. Tony Clement should should resign immediately, it is unethical for him to put roadblocks in front of medicinal cannabis users while pushing his competing pharma poisons.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:23 pm    Post subject: kwlafayette Reply with quote

People used to go blind, get brain damage and even die from drinking bad alcohol during alcohol prohibition. Do you really think making crystal meth illegal so that we have amateur chemists making it with drano in their bathtubs keeps anybody safer? All that does is make it very profitable to cut corners and use crappy ingredients. The drug started off as a legal pharmaceutical used to treat ADD or something. All drugs are safer when made by proffessionals in a lab environment. I would never do meth legal or not but the people who are doing it don't seem to care if its illegal. At least if people had to come into contact with a doctor to get their drugs they would get a clean product and reliable dosing information. The only reason people use crystal meth anyways is because it is far cheaper than cocaine which extremely expensive due to prohibition laws.
Donald Hughes





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 166
Reputation: 16.2Reputation: 16.2
Location: Libertarian socialism

PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Some drugs are too dangerous to be legal. What is that popular drup nowadays, crystal meth or somthing? I have heard it has immediate and permanent physical effect on the structure of your brain. I for one do not want to work past retirement to pay for a generation of brain damaged druggies who cannot care for themselevs. Some chemicals have less effect on your body, or no permanent effect at all.
More than a million Americans use meth within the framework of illegality. Millions more use other 'hard' drugs or abuse prescription painkillers. Many millions more abuse legal drugs like alcohol. If you think that these people are getting adequate medical or mental health help now, you are sorely mistaken. If you think that keeping things illegal somehow reduces the problem and doesn't impose high costs in other areas, let alone personal freedom, then you are also incorrect. Perhaps if you want to reduce the number of people who turn to drugs to better their lives it, using police or soldiers isn't the best place to start.
FF_Canuck





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 3360
Reputation: 73.4
votes: 17
Location: Southern Alberta

PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I'm concerned, fully legalizing all drugs would be a disastrous policy change. I'll support legalization of marijuana with the following conditions:

- Consumption and possession by minors remains illegal
- Being high in a public place is as illegal as being drunk in a public place
- There is a reliable, constitutionally viable roadside testing device to test for THC levels
- Further to that point, that driving under the influence of marijuana continues to remain illegal
- Private establishments and public buildings retain the right to ban it from their premises, even where they permit smoking
- Employers, public or private, have the right to enact and enforce Drug-free policies
- Like alcohol, there is a potency standard which if exceeded, makes the substance illegal
- Also like alcohol, people who grow and sell for profit will be subject to licensing, regulation, and inspections, while people may privately grow their own for their own use

And that's just the short list. I know its not what many people envision when they think of legalization, but its the only fair and safe way to do it.
don muntean





Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 2262
Reputation: 34.9Reputation: 34.9Reputation: 34.9
votes: 8
Location: Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes - of the current illicit substances - [only] marijuana should become legal - if only 'provisionally' - to study the concept.

This could and should be done - both here in Canada and - State's side as well.

There is too great a cost [not just cash] to keep things the way they are today.

The billions spent on trying to stamp grass out could and should be redirected to fight the proliferation of the drugs that 'are' dangerous - such as meth crack and other chemical substances. What to speak of a need to not waste cash on things like the war on marijuana - with so much needed for the war on terror.

The fact is the science behind the marijuana crackdown is quite faulty - in fact - it can be shown that marijuana is usually safer than alcohol for most people - people who are agressive for instance are not made more so by use of marijuana - maybe they're made less so - however - with alcohol it is quite the opposite - as most of us have seen agressive drunks - at one time or another in our lives!

So in any case - if there were an inclination in our Conservative and Republican governments - to score big points with youth (18 and older) [and millions of others] - then they should effect this 'provisional' marijuana legalization and they would be a shoe in for the next election as the greater populations would not wish to lose out on that new 'right'.

Just recall that Jimmy Carter promised to legalize grass in the presidential election of the 1970's - then - he betrayed those who voted for him on this issue.

...Ronald Reagan arrested twice as many drug users as Jimmy Carter during his term in office Reagan arrested far less people for possession of marijuana than Carter did. And despite the fact that during George Bush's first year in office 2000, the possession arrest rate rose. In 2001 and 2002 it has went down consistently and in fact the number of people arrested for possession of marijuana was lower in 2002 under Bush, than 1999 Clintons last year in office. Mark my words folks, if we give the white house back to the Democrats. The war on terrorism is over and it's back to the war on drugs, on marijuana, and on us....

http://www.pot-tv.net/archive/.....-2486.html

The fact is - it should be 'the right' which brings fairness and correction to - this issue.

I believe in our new Conservative leaders and - I believe in the Republican Party - I know we shall see their attention change - to what is right and fair through their effective 'time and circumstances' management of this issue...


Last edited by don muntean on Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:26 am; edited 2 times in total
don muntean





Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 2262
Reputation: 34.9Reputation: 34.9Reputation: 34.9
votes: 8
Location: Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FF_Canuck wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, fully legalizing all drugs would be a disastrous policy change. I'll support legalization of marijuana with the following conditions:

- Consumption and possession by minors remains illegal
- Being high in a public place is as illegal as being drunk in a public place
- There is a reliable, constitutionally viable roadside testing device to test for THC levels
- Further to that point, that driving under the influence of marijuana continues to remain illegal
- Private establishments and public buildings retain the right to ban it from their premises, even where they permit smoking
- Employers, public or private, have the right to enact and enforce Drug-free policies
- Like alcohol, there is a potency standard which if exceeded, makes the substance illegal
- Also like alcohol, people who grow and sell for profit will be subject to licensing, regulation, and inspections, while people may privately grow their own for their own use

And that's just the short list. I know its not what many people envision when they think of legalization, but its the only fair and safe way to do it.


Those are all very good suggestions - without a doubt.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:02 pm    Post subject: now that we have a totally uninformed opinion Reply with quote

Number 1 Being "high" on pot is a helluva lot different than being drunk. Not even my own mother can tell if I am high. Pot does not change your personality, lower your inhibitions or impair your co-ordination and mental functions the way alcohol does.

Cannabis does not impair it enhances, and besides a person will test positive for Cannabis even if they havn't smoked any for up to 2 months even though the "high" lasts only a couple of hours. Actual tests have proven that cannabis does not significantly impair drivers and statistically pot smoking drivers are involved in less accidents than totally straight drivers because they are less likely to drive aggressively, or take unnecessary chances. Your cell phone or your big mac are more of an impairment than my joint.

As for potency, the more potent the better. In fact hashish is even safer than Cannabis because it is more concentrated so you need to inhale less smoke to get the same effect. There is no known lethal dose of THC, the active ingredient in Cannabis.

I agree that private businesses should be able to decide what if anything people and employees may smoke inside their establishments, but that is not even the case now. Non smoking whiners have crybabied their way into having their prejudices enshrined in law so in many provinces a guy can't even open a bar that allows cigarette smoking. I always wonder why if there is such a high demand for non smoking environments entrepreneurs wouldn't fill this need without having the government force the decision on them.

What employees do on their own time is their own business, the employer is not their owner, unless you are advocating slavery. Do you think your boss should be able to fire you for having a glass of wine on your day off?? Ludicrous!

To have a free country the people at the very least must have autonomy over their own bodies.
FF_Canuck





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 3360
Reputation: 73.4
votes: 17
Location: Southern Alberta

PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Being "high" on pot is a helluva lot different than being drunk


There are differences, but also similarities.

Quote:
...Pot does not change your personality, lower your inhibitions or impair your co-ordination and mental functions the way alcohol does.


I don't want to turn this into a war of anecdotes, but this is blatantly false. It does everything you've mentioned, though the effect varies, as with alcohol, by individual. I've know people to become extremely violent following the consumption of marijuana. I've known people to become docile. I've know people to engage in all manner of stupid and dangerous activities because they were 'high' on marijuana. Speak to some front-line emergency workers about the behavioural changes they've witnessed - you might be suprised.

Quote:
...statistically pot smoking drivers are involved in less accidents than totally straight drivers [bold]because[/bold] they are less likely to drive aggressively, or take unnecessary chances. Your cell phone...


I'll guarantee you that whatever studies you're referring to do not assert that causal relationship. They may suggest it. If possible, I'd like to see links to the studies. There are many possible factors that could create the statistics you mention, but I'd need to see them to really discuss them.

Re: potency, provided there is no negative effect on health, I can concede that point. I'm not sure about this, and may post on it later.

Quote:
What employees do on their own time is their own business, the employer is not their owner, unless you are advocating slavery. Do you think your boss should be able to fire you for having a glass of wine on your day off?? Ludicrous!


Agreed only in part, but I haven't time to discuss it. WHopefully I can continue later.
YoungGreen





Joined: 11 Sep 2006
Posts: 1
Reputation: 12.6

PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its funny, here you all are talking about legalizing marijuana, but you vote for a party which will NEVER listen to your voices on this issue and many others, you have no real say in what your party does, or how it conducts its business. They could care less about appeasing you/building the kind of Canada you can be proud of, because in the end they know you will all vote conservative anyway. Because the alternative is unthinkable.
its time to realize that you can make a difference, you can tell your party that there is a better choice then the worst of 2 evils and they can other start to build a Canada we can all be proud of, or they can sit back and watch the greens do it! 32% of Canadians said they would consider voting green. And we arenít even in the debates yet; we have 1/10th of the other partyís budgets, yet we have reached 32% of the people. Why then o they not vote for us? "Because we had to stop the liberals" or "because we had to stop the conservatives"
32% would put the greens as the official opposition, possibly even a minority government.
If nothing else voting green will get your parties to finally realize they cant just repeat the same promises every four years and coax into here little MP jobs and do absolutely nothing to advance our society and greater a better standard of living for our people.
They will realize that you have realized you donít have to settle for the better of 2 evils! You can vote for positive change!

www.greenparty.ca!

Go there and read our platform, donít throw away another election!

Cheers

James

Young Green
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:43 pm    Post subject: Jack Layton Reply with quote

You'd get a LOT more people to vote conservative if they came out with a drug policy of legalization and regulation. The NDP membership nearly doubled after Jack Layton appeared on Pot TV and was interviewed by Marc Emery. Jack said Cannabis is a wonderful substance and that the NDP would favour an environment where it would be legal to for people to use it within the privacy of their own home or in a cafe, and that they should be able to buy it or grow it themselves. All of a sudden pot smokers all over the country were signing up for the NDP and organizing through the internet to help out on NDP campaigns, getting all of their friends to come out and vote as well. That is the only reason the cons won the last election is because so many people left the Liberal party for the NDP. Myself included. I started voting Lieberal when Cretien hinted he would decriminalize Cannabis, before that I had always voted Conservative, except the one time I voted for Manning(shudder). I never liked Martin.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
Reputation: 156.2Reputation: 156.2
votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrGreenthumb wrote:
Its kind of hard to believe that on a conservative blog over 70% of the poll takers admit to smoking pot. How can that be? Why would you vote for a party that advocates mandatory minimums for drug offences would be the logical question to ask yourselves. The fiberal decrim bill was crap and I'm glad it was defeated. Glad to see Paul Martin gone too, never liked that guy. As much as I disliked Martin, however I would sure have rather had him as prime minister than Harper. Why is it that everybody in Canada seems to realize that the drug war is assanine and counter-productive yet we continue to tow the American's drug war line?

You should know that technically Cannabis cultivation and possession are already legal in Canada since the supreme court deemed the laws unconstitutional. The courts tried to strike the law back up after making some changes to the medical exemption rules but the courts have no such power. POLCOA is an acronym for Parliament ONLY legislates, Courts only Abrogate. The charter states that any law deemed unconstitional is null and void from its inception. Parliament has enacted no new Cannabis Laws since Terry Parker had the law deemed unconstitutional. Google John C Turmel for the whole story.

Eventually the courts and parliament will be forced to admit it.

Everybody has the right to their CHOICE of treatment. I use pot for my severe arthritis and I'll be damned if I will let Stephen Harper or his sidekick pastor toews stop me. What makes me even sicker is the health minister owning 1/4 of the shares of a pharma company which is a total conflict of interest. Tony Clement should should resign immediately, it is unethical for him to put roadblocks in front of medicinal cannabis users while pushing his competing pharma poisons.

Maybe because we have been there, done that, and we know exactly what we are talking about?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:38 pm    Post subject: your a-hole from a hole in the ground? Reply with quote

You my friend know very little about this subject, that much is obvious from your posts. I am a forum administrator at medpot.net forums so you can bet your a$$ that I have done the research, and know everything there is to know about drugs and drug policy.

I have yearsof first hand experience with many drugs legal and otherwise to draw from.

The most dangerous drug out there is alcohol, and thats a fact. Alcohol is rated right up there on the ease of overdose scale with cocaine and heroin, not to mention the way it lowers inhibitions and encourages unsafe choices.
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The legalization or decriminalization of marijuana

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