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biggie





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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:36 pm    Post subject: Chinese-Canadian Relations Reply with quote

Blue Meanie suggested we start a new topic on this...

Any thoughts on the subject of Chinese-Canadian Relations?

Do we work to improve them? Sever them completely? How do we pressure China to become more democratic - or do we accept their communist government and work with it?

How about the western world as a whole? How should the west deal with Beijing in the coming years?
Blue Meanie





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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is an issue being lost in the West due to our focus on Islamofascim and terror. Meanwhile the Chinese continue their military buildup, economic and political expansion around the world. What I don't see is any progress towards open democracy or human rights.
Glenn
biggie





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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blue Meanie wrote:
I think this is an issue being lost in the West due to our focus on Islamofascim and terror. Meanwhile the Chinese continue their military buildup, economic and political expansion around the world. What I don't see is any progress towards open democracy or human rights.
Glenn


When we compare to the past - killing girls to ensure they have boys; the improvement of human rights and even freedom of speech and religion... there is a difference. Although it is far from perfect, I do see it improving slowly. There are certainly many worse nations out there, and isolation won't do us any favours.

I definitely think we need to continue pressuring china on democratic reform... but I disagree with any sort of cessation of relations.
Blue Meanie





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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biggie rection wrote:

When we compare to the past - killing girls to ensure they have boys; the improvement of human rights and even freedom of speech and religion... there is a difference. Although it is far from perfect, I do see it improving slowly. There are certainly many worse nations out there, and isolation won't do us any favours.

I definitely think we need to continue pressuring china on democratic reform... but I disagree with any sort of cessation of relations.


I'm sure there have been some improvements, but when you start out with such a big deficit.... As a totalitarian regime it can be tough for us to know what improvements are "real" and what is just propaganda being reinforced by the MSM. Look at the treatment reported of Falun Gong (sp.?) supporters. There was a report that some of them are being purposely murdered so that their body parts can be sold! EEK! There may be worse nations out there, but China seems to have no qualms about doing business with them, unconditionally. Frankly, there is no pressure we can bring on China politically or militarily that will influence their behavior towards democratic reforms if they don't want it. Economically, the genie is out of the bottle and they are a powerhouse and will continue to grow. If we cut trade with them, they could care less.
Glenn
biggie





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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blue Meanie wrote:
biggie rection wrote:

When we compare to the past - killing girls to ensure they have boys; the improvement of human rights and even freedom of speech and religion... there is a difference. Although it is far from perfect, I do see it improving slowly. There are certainly many worse nations out there, and isolation won't do us any favours.

I definitely think we need to continue pressuring china on democratic reform... but I disagree with any sort of cessation of relations.


I'm sure there have been some improvements, but when you start out with such a big deficit.... As a totalitarian regime it can be tough for us to know what improvements are "real" and what is just propaganda being reinforced by the MSM. Look at the treatment reported of Falun Gong (sp.?) supporters. There was a report that some of them are being purposely murdered so that their body parts can be sold! EEK! There may be worse nations out there, but China seems to have no qualms about doing business with them, unconditionally. Frankly, there is no pressure we can bring on China politically or militarily that will influence their behavior towards democratic reforms if they don't want it. Economically, the genie is out of the bottle and they are a powerhouse and will continue to grow. If we cut trade with them, they could care less.
Glenn


I'm in agreement... The real question is does cutting off trade with them hurt them or us more? I suspect it hurts us more. The west has enough enemies right now, the last thing we need is enemies with 1 billion people, nuclear arms and a massive economy.
Bleatmop





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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Until recently, I would hae agreed with the idea that we should strengthen relations with China. China has a massive economy, and us being able to trade with them would only help us. Imagine how good it would be for everyone, from grain growers, to the brewers to the shippers and all if we could just sell 1 Canadian Beer to every Chinese person (I used to say Molson, but arenít they own by an american company now?). Then, as we increased trade with them, we could increase our influence with them as our economies became more integrated, and then we could use our politics to influence them on important issues like human rights.

However, recently I've changed my opinion. Why? One reason: North Korea. China seemed ready and willing to step up and play the role of a superpower that would stand up to the evils of the world. However, once they sabotaged the sanctions against N. Korea and basically gave them a pat on the back for getting nukes, I've had a complete 180 on my views of them. If China wants to support and prop up the most evil regimes in the world, then they are free to do that. But I certainly don't want my country helping them do that in any way, by means of trade or political relations. If China comes to their senses and realises there is no good that can come from letting Kim-Joghn-Ill (I have no idea how to spell his name) having nukes and supports the sanctions, then I might change my mind again, but not until then.

Oh ya, Russia and the toothless UN is on my list after this N. Korea episode too.
biggie





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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the North Korea incident is indeed troubling. I can see how that would affect you opinion. I don't think it means we should stop trade - but perhaps not work on growing it until we see some reasonable action on their part.
FF_Canuck





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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there's too emerging powers on the continent - China and India. Of the two, I would much prefer growing and strengthening our relationship with India. Its a stable democracy with a rapidly growing, young population that does not want to kill us, and as far as I can tell, they don't maintain a tyrannical feudal rule over their agricultural base.

However, there is something to be said for maintaining current relations with China in hopes of influencing the regime.
biggie





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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FF_Canuck wrote:
I think there's too emerging powers on the continent - China and India. Of the two, I would much prefer growing and strengthening our relationship with India. Its a stable democracy with a rapidly growing, young population that does not want to kill us, and as far as I can tell, they don't maintain a tyrannical feudal rule over their agricultural base.

However, there is something to be said for maintaining current relations with China in hopes of influencing the regime.


I would agree with fostering relations with india... can't see anything wrong with that.
Blue Meanie





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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bleatmop wrote:
..... Then, as we increased trade with them, we could increase our influence with them as our economies became more integrated, and then we could use our politics to influence them on important issues like human rights.


Unfortunately, this is nothing but a pipe dream. At present, about 80% of our economy is dependant on trade with the U.S. ( I hope I got that right, at any rate it is very large), a neighbor we share a long common border with, common origins, is a democracy and has a population of about 300 million. I think we can all agree that we have very little influence with them.
So how much trade would we have to do with China, a country so totally opposite to us, to ever have influence over them? If you think the U.S. has too much influence over us now, how do you feel about China having even more? I think we should be scared of the prospect. I think we should look at limiting our economic dependance and trade with China before its too late and our dependance on them is so great, that they can inflict real pain on "us" for not giving in to their demands.
Glenn
TealTories





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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that we have to continue relations with China, although we do need to be stronger with them. This is a global issue and until all of the west agrees upon this it remains a tough global issue. Canada itself isnt going to change Chinese policy, although if all the western nations and Russia stay united on this we may see some positive change.
We would need someone like Russia to front this. A country that could really empathize with China and at the same time would benefit greatly.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I say, screw communist China. Lets deal with the legitimate Chinese government, the one in Taiwan.
FF_Canuck





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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette,

An important point that we've all forgotten. However, I don't think its realistic to officially recognize the government of Taiwan as the legitimate government of mainland China... We will have to coninue dealing with both, I think.
Bleatmop





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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blue Meanie wrote:
Bleatmop wrote:
..... Then, as we increased trade with them, we could increase our influence with them as our economies became more integrated, and then we could use our politics to influence them on important issues like human rights.


Unfortunately, this is nothing but a pipe dream. At present, about 80% of our economy is dependant on trade with the U.S. ( I hope I got that right, at any rate it is very large), a neighbor we share a long common border with, common origins, is a democracy and has a population of about 300 million. I think we can all agree that we have very little influence with them.
So how much trade would we have to do with China, a country so totally opposite to us, to ever have influence over them? If you think the U.S. has too much influence over us now, how do you feel about China having even more? I think we should be scared of the prospect. I think we should look at limiting our economic dependance and trade with China before its too late and our dependance on them is so great, that they can inflict real pain on "us" for not giving in to their demands.
Glenn


To answers your questions, I don't think it would have to be how much we trade with China, but what we trade with China. Right now, Canada is a net exporter of the most important substance on earth, oil. China is an emerging superpower that is hungry for oil. I think this gives us incredible leverage in the world (unfortunately it also gives places like Iran leverage as well).

To comment on our influence with the US... well I won't go into details, but lets thank Jean and Paul for eroding what influence we did have.
biggie





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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think one thing people often overlook as a strong commodity is Uranium...
We're the largest exporter of Uranium... That combined with oil - we've got a recipe for some serious international clout.
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