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Do you support racial profiling?
Yes
73%
 73%  [ 17 ]
No
26%
 26%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 23

Author Message
Craig
Site Admin




Joined: 29 Aug 2006
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votes: 36

PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:54 am    Post subject: Do you support racial profiling? Reply with quote

I support it. Do you?

Profiling is effective. It is logical. We profile on many factors. Why should we exclude either race or religion from the mix for the sake of political correctness. Race may not be the factor behind the incident from which we seek to protect ourselves. But if the accussed are all from a certain race then it makes sense to include race in the mix of variables used to contruct a profile.

Two in five Canadians now back racial profiling
Canard





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 1
Reputation: 12.9
Location: People's Republic of Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islamofacism is not a race, it is an extremist cult of a 7th century violent "prophet". Individuals who fit the profile should be subjected to additional security screening in the interest of public safety. This has nothing to do with political correctness; it has everything to do with political responsibility to protect the citizens from violence perpetrated by people who fit the profie.
McGuire





Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 369
Reputation: 20.2Reputation: 20.2
Location: Soviet Pictouwestistan

PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I said yes. The racial profiling that is necessary in order to protect us from Islamofascist terror is not the same as "Driving while Black", which isn't justifiable.
palomino_pony





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 539
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votes: 3
Location: Lower Mainland, BC

PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do you see racial profiling work? Separate security lines at the airport? One line for each racial group with strip searches for people how fit the profile and a go free card for the others? What about separate planes flying the same route for each racial group? Until I see how this would be put into practice, I would say no.

Here are some names and events to thing about:

What about Timothy McVeigh (Caucasian) and Terry Nichols (Caucasian) in Oklahoma City, April 19 1995? Ted Kaczynski (aka Unabomber) (Caucasian) manged to get a bomb aboard a plane. What about Richard Reid (aka Shoe Bomber) (1/2 Caucasian and 1/2 Black) ? How would racial profiling help here?

Racial profiling is nothing more than glorified stereotyping.
Craig
Site Admin




Joined: 29 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

palomino_pony wrote:
What about Timothy McVeigh (Caucasian) and Terry Nichols (Caucasian) in Oklahoma City, April 19 1995? Ted Kaczynski (aka Unabomber) (Caucasian) manged to get a bomb aboard a plane. What about Richard Reid (aka Shoe Bomber) (1/2 Caucasian and 1/2 Black) ? How would racial profiling help here?


Absolutely, but racial profiling is of limited use when the race in question represents 75% of the population. It doesn't help narrow down the pool much. But when the race in question constitutes about 5% of the population it does help. It can't be used in isolation but combined with other profiling techniques it DOES help. Right now the greatest threat against us is from radical Islam. And MOST muslims are either south-east asian or arab. Why would you not include it as a profiling technique? Because you don't want to offend someone?

Quote:
Racial profiling is nothing more than glorified stereotyping.


Exactly. Though your statement was meant to shame people who support it. Stereotyping is synonymous with profiling. It is not always a bad thing.

Most muslims are good people. But the fact remains that they are not doing enough to rid Islam of its extremist elements in the west. Most are apathetic at best. If they don't want to be the target of racial profiling then they need to start fighting against the extremist elements in their own community.
palomino_pony





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 539
Reputation: 93.9Reputation: 93.9
votes: 3
Location: Lower Mainland, BC

PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
Why would you not include it as a profiling technique? Because you don't want to offend someone?


You missed my point. I really don't care about offending anybody I just don't see how racial profiling would work. You say that it DOES help, but other than shaming the rest of the law abiding Muslims, you don't say how.

How does one go about shaming someone anyways? Public service announcements? Not allowing Muslims to buy airline tickets or ride on the subway? If you were part of that 5% group and you were law abiding, would it not make you resentful? Might it not be the thing that pushes you over the edge?

I don't have a lot of time for political correctness or affirmative action policies. My objection to racial profiling is not because it may offend someone, I just don't see it useful. If you can tell me how this it will work in practice, I would reconsider.
Craig
Site Admin




Joined: 29 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

palomino_pony wrote:
you don't say how.


Yes I did. It is all about statistics. If the largest threat you face is from islamic terrorists and most of them are arab then it makes sense to devote a larger portion of your time on them. Given that arabs constitute about 5% of the US population it saves LOADS of man power which would have been wasted on other groups who are less likely to be of concern.

Quote:
If you were part of that 5% group and you were law abiding, would it not make you resentful? Might it not be the thing that pushes you over the edge?


I would look at the situation and realize that other members of my religion are causing concern for the general population of the USA. I would then do everything in my power to expose them and to ensure that ZERO of the funding at my local mosque ever makes it to those elements. I would do this because I was a proud AMERICAN muslim who doesn't want our freedoms to be lost because of a minority who follow my religion.
Craig
Site Admin




Joined: 29 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's take this a step further.

We have a quaint little cafe villiage in Tel-Aviv that is rarely frequented by Arab-Muslims. Recently there were two suicide bombings by Arab-Muslims in the area.

Security forces have assembled this profile...

1. People wearing bulky clothing are suspect
2. Arabs are of greater concern for two reasons:
a. They rarely enter this area
b. They were responsible for two recent attacks

The limited police force allocated to that area devote their attention to everyone wearing bulky clothing (profile #1) OR they could devote their close attention to arab-muslims in the area wearing bulky clothing (profile #1 and #2). One of these methods is going to work better than the other. Can you identify which one it is?
palomino_pony





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
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votes: 3
Location: Lower Mainland, BC

PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
If the largest threat you face is from islamic terrorists and most of them are arab then it makes sense to devote a larger portion of your time on them.


IMO, this is common sense. This is standard profiling, not racial profiling. I say go for it, but I have an issue with tarring everybody with the same brush. When someone says "racial profiling", it brings up connotations of "driving while black".

I have a problem with "hard profiling" where race and religion are the only reasons to warrant investigation. You are a Muslim from Saudi Arabia, therefore we are only going to investigate you because Saudi Muslims flew a planes into buildings in NYC 5 years ago.

I have no issue with "soft profiling". We are going to investigate you because you attended the same Mosque and you shared an apartment with people who were involved in crashing planes into the NYC buildings. You also paid for flying lessons but skipped the part where you land the plane.

I think that critics of profiling has intermingled the definitions and use "racial profiling" as part of their rhetoric.

So... yes I support "racial profiling" if it used with other factors to determine criminal suspiciousness. But I cannot support it race and relgion is the <b>only</b> factor.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
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votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I do. If a particular ethnic group is responsible for the majority of crime, or terrorism, then there is no point patting down some pensioner.
FF_Canuck





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 3360
Reputation: 73.4
votes: 17
Location: Southern Alberta

PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think racial profiling is the right word for what I support. I support general profiling which, among other things, includes:

- behaviours
- body language
- country/region of origin
- culture of origin
- odd travel patterns

I also support random checks mitgated by common sense. Ie, waiving through the proverbial 78 year-old jewish grandmother, or the mom with three whiny kids ... etc. IMO, 'racial profiling' is the term used by people critical of any kind of probability-based screening.

Regarding stereotypes, the reason we're so prone to them is that they're a survival instinct - making snap judgements about a person or situation based on previously acquired data. Stereotypes in of themselves are neither good nor bad, they're a tool.
palomino_pony





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 539
Reputation: 93.9Reputation: 93.9
votes: 3
Location: Lower Mainland, BC

PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
Let's take this a step further.

We have a quaint little cafe villiage in Tel-Aviv that is rarely frequented by Arab-Muslims. Recently there were two suicide bombings by Arab-Muslims in the area.

Security forces have assembled this profile...

1. People wearing bulky clothing are suspect
2. Arabs are of greater concern for two reasons:
a. They rarely enter this area
b. They were responsible for two recent attacks

The limited police force allocated to that area devote their attention to everyone wearing bulky clothing (profile #1) OR they could devote their close attention to arab-muslims in the area wearing bulky clothing (profile #1 and #2). One of these methods is going to work better than the other. Can you identify which one it is?


Gee I wonder which one that one would be... :roll:. You prove my point, you would devote attention to bulky clothed Arab Muslims. As an experienced investigator, you would struggle to remember the last time a Jewish person had bombed a Jewish cafe. BTW, when I visited Israel, I did not notice any bias on who was getting extra security checks. Flying out of Ben Gurion, I had my entire backpack and contents spread on the table. Everything was examined including my toothpaste tube and the batteries for my camera. In 1997, as a 24 year old white Canadian male, I sure did not fit any terrorist profile (at least none that I could think of), but that did not stop Israeli airport security from performing a thorough search.

Use this example. It was reported the a white male robbed a bank. A security camera confirms that he drove away in a red Ford Taurus, but could not make out the licence plate. A road block is set up on the highway in both directions. Do you:

1. Perform a full vehicle search on every white person regardless of the vehicle they are driving?
2. Perform a full vehicle search on every white person driving a red Ford Taurus?

Substitute black or Hispanic for white.

One last question, if the Oklahoma City bombing happened in 2003 (ie post 9/11), do you only investigate Arab/Southeast Asians, or do you leave the possibility open that anybody, regardless of race, could be a terrorist?
Craig
Site Admin




Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 4415
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votes: 36

PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

palomino_pony wrote:
In 1997, as a 24 year old white Canadian male, I sure did not fit any terrorist profile (at least none that I could think of), but that did not stop Israeli airport security from performing a thorough search.


If you were Palestinian the search would have been more thorough.

Quote:
Use this example. It was reported the a white male robbed a bank. A security camera confirms that he drove away in a red Ford Taurus, but could not make out the licence plate. A road block is set up on the highway in both directions. Do you:

1. Perform a full vehicle search on every white person regardless of the vehicle they are driving?
2. Perform a full vehicle search on every white person driving a red Ford Taurus?

Substitute black or Hispanic for white.


You perform a search of every white person driving a Ford Taurus. The same if it was black or hispanic. I'm not sure what your point here is. You have two pieces of information here - the colour of skin (racial profiling) and the car. You have just proven my point.

Quote:
One last question, if the Oklahoma City bombing happened in 2003 (ie post 9/11), do you only investigate Arab/Southeast Asians, or do you leave the possibility open that anybody, regardless of race, could be a terrorist?


So because white people also commit acts of terrorism we should exclude race from the equation? Every situation is unique and just because racial profiling might not be effective in certain situations doesn't mean it isn't effective in all situations.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes!
Michael





Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 35
Reputation: 13.4
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As has been pointed out, the fact that most terrorists are of a specific racial profile just makes it good sense to look at race a little more closely in certain situations -- say, when folks are boarding a plane.

The problem these days is that no one wants to say, "we're looking at (insert racial type here) closely," so we have the kind of situation that Mark Steyn mentioned last week.

Quote:
Down at the other end of the news business, meanwhile, one finds items like this snippet from the Sydney Morning Herald:

"A 16-year-old girl was tailed by a car full of men before being dragged inside and assaulted in Sydney's west last night, police say . . .

"The three men involved in the attack were described to police as having dark 'mullet-style' haircuts."

Three men with "mullet-style" hair, huh? Not much to go on there. Bit of a head scratcher. But, as it turned out, the indefatigable Sydney Morning Herald typist had faithfully copied out every salient detail of the police report except one. Here's the statement the coppers themselves issued:

"Police are seeking three men described as being of Middle Eastern/Mediterranean appearance, with dark 'mullet-style' hair cuts."

That additional detail narrows it down a bit, wouldn't you say?


We are now going out of our way to NOT mention race in connection to criminal acts. What the hell is that all about?
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