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Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
Thank you for the trip through what you imagine the Yes, Minister world of Justin Trudeau. Trudeau himself said he knew, which means it passed over his desk and he OKd it.
He was aware of it, yes, but he did not approve it as you seem to think.
Quote:


In other words, someone in Washington can have the RCMP's crack sizzle squad do its bidding and no Canadian can say yes or no? I don't believe you.

<sigh>

The US authorities must present some e-docs that show their position and request the arrest be made. Come on....its easy to follow.
Quote:

I remember when two guys from California -- who had captured young girls and held them in an underground cell where they took their pleasure with the girls ... in the end, there was cannibalism involved ... One of these fine young Californians were apprehended in Alberta somewhere. And Canadian authorities refused to hand him over because he might get the death penalty!

So do I !

Cool story bro. But as you are aware, completely useless story to this thread and definitely immaterial.

But cool story bro.


Quote:

So I don't believe your version.

Its not my version . You are trying to make up your own facts as it were. Infowars baby!
Quote:

You are making it up, TC, and I can't imagine why. Surely, any nation that would stand up for the rights of a cannibal would stand up to protect a woman who has committed no crime on American 'or Canadian soil. If they were consistent ...


You seem entirely incapable of following your own line of thinking. Thats too bad since you would know better than to try this angle.

Ng was not returned until the death penalty was off the table. Huawei exec is nowhere near getting the death penalty thus ....no problems.
Quote:

Perhaps Justin thought he could get even with Trump with this .... that's the scary thought.

Only in your own aged addled mind. Probably time to read up on this instead of winging it and looking foolish.

Anyhow, to add that their exists a parallel insofar as ZTE (they be Chinese ok??) paid $1B to get out from under the spectre of them going bankrupt from the trading the did with Iran and using US technology.

They paid the US that money.

Funny how that works huh? Its interesting once you learn the facts. Pretty boring when you dont know a thing about it. Wanna join the interesting camp ?
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:

Mr Kovrig will, no doubt, be comforted by the thought that Justin Trudeau is concerned, and cares a lot. Didja know that China only executes a prisoner when their body parts have been sold, and the execution isn't so much a ceremony as a bit of surgery? Eyes, liver, kidneys are particularly valuable on the body parts market.

Sure I knew.

So what? Kovrig will see daylight soon and has no worries about disappearing.

But keep your fantasy playing in your mind.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how the arrest happened? Did they roughly grab him in the middle of the night? ... and I wonder what a Chinese prison is like. Would they have visiting hours, or ... would Mr Kovrig be in with the general population?

The Chinese don't feel any obligation to treat "foreigners" with respect. They probably are less interested in the details of where someone is from than you think. I wouldn't like to be Mr Kovrig in a Chinese prison, in the midst of rising anti-foreigner feeling in China. I hope he's tough -- unfashionable as that is.

I wonder if Mr. Kovrig is as forgiving as TC? At least he can be comforted with the knowledge that his misfortune has nothing to do with the illegal actions that Justin OK'd. Because Justin is never responsible for anything ...
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL! Faux News brought to you by bugs.

"Illegal actions" .


Mr Kovrig is probably in a very safe place and treated quite nicely albeit imprisoned, much the same as Miss Huawei .

Go read . Its embarassing to witness your ignorance. Please.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Happens all the time?

I do so enjoy it when you tear my argument to shreds like this ... it's like I don't even have to say anything.
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
Happens all the time?

Pretty much. You were advised how often earlier, but of course you forgot. Best go back to page 1.

Anyhow...
Requests, Surrenders, Arrests, 2008-18 (Source: Department of Justice)

Search...
Fiscal yearTotal extradition requests received by CanadaArrestsTotal number of persons surrendered from Canada pursuant to the Extradition Act
2008-09 137 95 81
2009-10 162 92 77
2010-11 186 124 65
2011-12 178 136 79
2012-13 101 65 76
2013-14 90 55 70
2014-15 89 58 58
2015-16 78 44 47
2016-17 79 36 68
2017-18 110 50 60

Thats ^ a fair number huh?
Quote:

I do so enjoy it when you tear my argument to shreds like this ... it's like I don't even have to say anything.


I know, you practically say nothing but lies or made up bugs facts .

Pretty easy in this thread to have torn your apart.

Like I said, go read up on this and dont be a dumb ass.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm talking about the arbitrary arrests that lead to hostage-takings of Canadians in retaliation.

How many of them? And in how many of those cases were we the original hostage-takers?

The figures you offer are of criminals and criminal suspects. Fugitives from justice. We need a list of incidents were Canadian government officials implemented an injustice. These are not things likely to be on the same list.

I don't think this happens all the time.

The worst part is -- they have given Canada an ultimatum. And Trump's bum-boy is already over the barrel. This suggests to me that if Meng isn't returned pronto there will be further consequences. This isn't over, and while Mr. Kovrig's liberty may be something of no consequence to you, he probably feels differently. He probably feels we took a bishop, and China took a pawn in recompense.

What if China targets the queen?

Happens all the time? I do so enjoy it when you tear my argument to shreds like this ... etc.
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
I'm talking about the arbitrary arrests that lead to hostage-takings of Canadians in retaliation.

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

China is playing the game. What can I say? Its a show. No more no less.
Quote:

How many of them? And in how many of those cases were we the original hostage-takers?

The only point expressed in that post was that it does happen , all the time.
Quote:

The figures you offer are of criminals and criminal suspects. Fugitives from justice. We need a list of incidents were Canadian government officials implemented an injustice. These are not things likely to be on the same list.

Fraud is a criminal issue.

Political issues probably do not show up as you mention.

Quote:

The worst part is -- they have given Canada an ultimatum.

So what?

The Chinese know it was the US asking us to. So now they play all rough with Canada to save face. They know it , we know, but the Chinese people are a quirky bunch and they want to be mad at Canada.
Stock in Canada Goose has dropped, boycotts are happening of their products.

Big whoop. All we be fine in due course as suspected.
Quote:

And Trump's bum-boy is already over the barrel.

Pence has nothing to do with this.

Quote:
This suggests to me that if Meng isn't returned pronto there will be further consequences.

Yawn.
Whats funny is you do not care one bit. Its just cover for you to parade ignorance and distain to PM JT . It is obvious as you keep making it about JT when in fact it is about the USA FA office/US AG office.

Everyone knows that, but for some reason you try and tie it in the most unimaginative ways to JT.
Quote:

This isn't over, and while Mr. Kovrig's liberty may be something of no consequence to you, he probably feels differently. He probably feels we took a bishop, and China took a pawn in recompense.

As if you give a rats ass fuck about Kovrig. LOL!

Spare me your concern, you dont care.
Quote:

What if China targets the queen?


Oh noooooo think of the dumbest ass impossibility and apply it to this.

Lord thats a lame ass thought, par for the course but still lame.
Quote:

Happens all the time? I do so enjoy it when you tear my argument to shreds like this ... etc.
Glutton for punishment you are.

Again, go read, ignorance is no excuse.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since when was setting up a Chinese company to conduct trade with Iran something that can be construed as fraud? You call me ignorant, but I can read, I know what words mean, and "fraud" involves a criminal motive -- which is hard to establish ... in case you want to commit a fraud ... And there has to be some asset involved.

Otherwise, I could call your argument a fraud. Except there is no argument.

What is more disturbing is that TC lets his partisanship overcome his objectivity. He's right, I have no connection to Mr. Kovrig, but I still think that he's a victim of whatever bit or arbitrary BS the superpowers are playing, and Justin's role should be to protect Canadians from exactly this kind of retaliation.

Canada is a safe target for the Chinese. They know that Trudeau has alienated the American administration, and we are as incapable of defending ourselves diplomatically as we are militarily without them. In both cases, our position in the world depends on the Yanks. Face it, Trudeau has set us up to be a scapegoat.
Toronto Centre





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Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
Since when was setting up a Chinese company to conduct trade with Iran something that can be construed as fraud? You call me ignorant, but I can read, I know what words mean, and "fraud" involves a criminal motive -- which is hard to establish ... in case you want to commit a fraud ... And there has to be some asset involved.

She , Weng, misrepresented the ties of a subsidiary of Huawei . She then had the sub use American technology in sales to Iran (IIRC for nuclear issues)

This was strictly forbidden and is also the reason ZTE was near insolvency .

You are right, a chinese company using Chinese tech can theoretically use and sell to whomever they want . But when you use US tech, you abide by the rules or face the perils that exist.

Now, look at the fact she had aliases . Who does that in the business world? People who want to hide shit.

Why was she avoiding any travel to the US as did her other Execs?

Huawei knows what they did was wrong to some degree . They tried to avoid it.
Quote:

Otherwise, I could call your argument a fraud. Except there is no argument.

There is no argument, you are correct.

But you have been given almost all facts that are verifiable, however you seem bent on pushing your own agenda.
Quote:

What is more disturbing is that TC lets his partisanship overcome his objectivity. He's right, I have no connection to Mr. Kovrig, but I still think that he's a victim of whatever bit or arbitrary BS the superpowers are playing, and Justin's role should be to protect Canadians from exactly this kind of retaliation.

Hes a pawn in a chess match. So ? That happens all the time.

The Pres of US used GM/Dairy farmers of US/steel industry in the US as pawns.

So? Status quo.
Quote:

Canada is a safe target for the Chinese. They know that Trudeau has alienated the American administration, and we are as incapable of defending ourselves diplomatically as we are militarily without them. In both cases, our position in the world depends on the Yanks. Face it, Trudeau has set us up to be a scapegoat.

Conjecture without merit. (apart from we are a safe target)
Bugs





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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, he's not a pawn in a chess game. He's being treated like a pawn, but he's actually a Canadian citizen whose life is being taken over to force Canada to abide by long-established international law and practice. If it were you, you'd know the difference.

Nor is this a regular extradition, the kind that happen two or three times a week. Nobody thinks that.

It's a terrible show of weakness that will not go unnoticed. It sets the whole nation up as a possible scapegoat.
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
No, he's not a pawn in a chess game. He's being treated like a pawn, but he's actually a Canadian citizen whose life is being taken over to force Canada to abide by long-established international law and practice.

The sad reality here is that you have no idea how ignorant, neigh stupid , you appear when you write this shit.
Extraditions have existed for eons. Long established . So , you know, this is nothing new.

What is new however is that the US is using her and having us do the dirty work. It does suck but it is all legal and well above board.

I see none of the questions posed you think need a response. I undersatand that as if you were to respond youd come to the realization that aliases, ZTE, Iran having US tech would shoot the biggest hole in your argument .

Youd be exposed by the ignorance you try and peddle here. Ok cool.
Quote:

If it were you, you'd know the difference.

Says the guy who clearly hasnt done any homework and just spouts infowars shit.

So I am happy you say this. It merely confirms you shit and talk out of the same hole.
Quote:

Nor is this a regular extradition, the kind that happen two or three times a week. Nobody thinks that.

You are right. But extraditions do and that was what I was reporting.
Quote:

It's a terrible show of weakness that will not go unnoticed. It sets the whole nation up as a possible scapegoat.


Oh dont you worry .

For one, it wont, and two no one is worried about Canada . Its the markets that gets worried as the Chinese and US ramps up rhetoric around this.

The chinese are worried , I grant you that. They have a feeling that Canada will follow suit as the Aussies, NZ and Yanks do and ban Huawei servers from being used.

As I gaze out my office window, the giant Huawei sign is well light. Lots of buzz coming from the building. Chances are, at the rate this company expands, they will take over the entire 5 building complex.
I could tell you some great stories about thier workers. Some day.

Not today though. Enough of schooling you for the day. Ciao student.
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mandatory reading if one wants to grasp this issue.
Quote:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-46507974

Prosecutors say she conspired to defraud banks by telling banks a Huawei subsidiary was a separate company - thereby helping Huawei circumvent US trade bans.
--
The US has been investigating the world's largest smartphone maker since 2016, which it believes used a subsidiary to bring US manufacturing equipment and millions of dollars in transactions to Iran.
---

How does she have seven passports?
This remains somewhat of a mystery. (not really-OP opinion)

According to media reports, the tech boss has at least four Chinese passports and three Hong Kong passports.

Skip Twitter post by @China_SCS_info

IndoPacific_SCS_info
@China_SCS_info
Replying to @China_SCS_info
“In the past 11 years, Meng has been issued no fewer than seven different passports from both China and Hong Kong,” a letter from the US Department of Justice to Canada read, claiming she was a flight risk. It also listed the numbers of the seven passports.
-----
7
1:22 PM - Dec 9, 2018
Twitter Ads info and privacy
See IndoPacific_SCS_info's other Tweets
Twitter Ads info and privacy
Report
End of Twitter post by @China_SCS_info
----
Chinese rules dictate that if citizens want to get a passport from another country or region, they must give up their Chinese one. (gosh, any wonder why ?)

Hong Kong immigration officials would not comment on Ms Meng's case but stated no passport holder would be "in possession of more than one" at a time.

According to arrival and departure records of US Customs and Border Protection, Ms Meng used three different HK passports to enter the US on 33 occasions between 2014 and 2017.

Her second son is said to be studying at a school in Massachusetts but Ms Meng has not been back to the US since March 2017.

Canadian police told the court Huawei executives appeared to have "altered their travel plans" to avoid the US, since becoming aware of a criminal investigation into the company in April 2017.

And this too
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46533406

Spells it out and confirms what has been posted, at least by one poster here.

But Meng now has her freedom....sort of, she is out on bail with an ankle monitor.

Happy reading class of one.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This has gone past being funny. This is the point ... there is a treaty, but the terms of that treaty are not going to require Canada to take someone into custody and turn them over to the water-boarders without them justifying the charges, and if that act is not illegal in Canada, then no extraditio.

In this case, there are so many ways of raising an objection that it isn't even funny. Put it this way -- anyone who thought there was no case against Michael Bryant should definitely see that there's no case against Meng.

If our people were worried the Californians would execute someone who was capturing, kidnapping, raping, murdering, and then eating young women ... surely they'd smell the political nature of this, and bow out, leaving it for America's new best friend, Mexico, to accommodate the Americans.

Now China is looking for Canadians in China to lock up in revenge. You say, so what? ... happens all the time, just collateral damage. I say Can you imagine anthing worse that being locked up in a Chinese prison? Trudeau embarrasses us once again

So, we don't agree. OK, then, who do you think is a worse 'Prime Minister than Justin?

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Let me respond here to your second post, giving me a reading course. Look, there is a treaty. It doesn't require anything. The American government can't extradite a guy to a place where courts are a joke. (Well, OK, worse than ours that way.) They have to protect their own citizens' civil rights. And Canada would demand the same terms. In Meng's case, they could certainly refuse to treat her this way.

What you present is essentially a prosecutors argument. It isn't the procedure. In fact it would be fascinating to know when embargo running became a crime. Fraud? It just stinks of fakery to me. She was released on $10 million bail. For doing her job.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This should settle it ... listen to Ralph Goodale clutch his pearls and utter platitudes ...
=================================================

Quote:
... Canadian Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale on Tuesday confirmed the detention and said Canada is very concerned.

[....]


“We’re deeply concerned,” Goodale said in response to a question about Kovrig. “A Canadian is obviously in difficulty in China ... We are sparing no effort to do everything we possibly can to look after his safety.”

Goodale said there was no explicit indication at this point that it was related to the Meng arrest.

However, Guy Saint-Jacques, a former Canadian ambassador to China, said he had no doubt Kovrig was detained in relation to the arrest of the Huawei executive.

“In China there is no coincidence,” he said. “Unfortunately Canada is caught in the middle of this dispute between the U.S and China. Because China cannot kick the U.S. they turn to the next target.”


I think that last line means Canadians in China can expect to be scapegoated ... and if Meng is handed over to the Americans, it'll get worse. (These threats usually come with an escalator clause.)
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The Huawei Arrest & what it means

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