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Bugs





Joined: 16 Dec 2009
Posts: 5675
Reputation: 281.4
votes: 8

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

queenmandy85 wrote:
"What is there about a 'sunset clause' that makes it a deal-breaker? Can you tell me?"
It means perpetual uncertainty. It is bad for business. Stockwell Day said so.


The present NAFTA agreement is cancellable on six-months notice, which has already been served.

Why is that better than a sunset clause that simply gives the parties an opportunity to renew (or not) once every 5 years? Why is the one more 'unstable' than the other?

But the big question is: Why would that be a deal-breaker?
queenmandy85





Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 280
Reputation: 105.1
votes: 2
Location: Saskatoon

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The US trade problems have nothing to do with Canada. However, as Moore said yesterday, better no deal than a bad deal.
If we give supply management up, how much do we compensate the producers?
What does the US give us in return?
If we open up the dairy industry to US competition, will they adhere to our rules regarding health and safety?
The argument against supply management seems to be driven by ideology not pragmatic political considerations.
Rogers is so rich because people are willing to throw away money on cell phones.
Mexico has committed to not sign until Canada does. We'll see. It is better to have them with us. In union, there is strength.
Bugs





Joined: 16 Dec 2009
Posts: 5675
Reputation: 281.4
votes: 8

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not an administrative expert, so I only suggest things. When any new trade deal is announced, it will probably have a transitional period, where the tariffs come off slowly. The government imposes a tax on consumption that fills part of the gap between the cartel prices and the oligopolistic competition prices. And those monies are used to 'compensate' the cartel-members for giving up their unfair advantage.

Something like that. It's not so hard. It's like the old government did for the fishery workers in Newfoundland -- they set up a $400 million fund to ease them into new occupations.

You are locked into a pose that has been assigned to you -- it's like the USA are bullying us, and we aren't going to take it anymore. Then it leads into the bathhouse stuff involving 'bending over'. Very graphic, but a propaganda image that has nothing to do with the actual negotiations.

Be realistic. The USA came to Canada, offering a quick side-deal if we would throw in a 'win" for Trump on supply management. And we would keep our position in auto.
That means we lower a tax on ourselves and keep our best industrial jobs!!!

Tell me what's wrong with that?

That's the part you don't understand. Each side "hits" the other side by putting a tax on their own citizens! The deal on the table was ... small concessions that give us a more morket-driven economy and cheaper prices in return for access to the biggest, richest, and best market in the world!

Why would you let a sunset clause stand in the way of that?

And, by the way, Mexico and the US are ready to shake hands on their deal this week. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-trade-nafta/mexico-us-agree-to-speed-nafta-talks-toward-august-deal-idUSKBN1KH02V

So much for making a common front with a country that steals our auto jobs as well.
queenmandy85





Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 280
Reputation: 105.1
votes: 2
Location: Saskatoon

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You and I hold views that are not representative of the broad electorate. I am a militant Monarchist and you don't like supply management. It is okay because, aside from Cosmo, RCO and TC, nobody is ever going to read what we write.
I do apologize for the bath house analogy. It was inappropriate. Not my usual style.
Have a good weekend. :-)
Bugs





Joined: 16 Dec 2009
Posts: 5675
Reputation: 281.4
votes: 8

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With respect, I don't see how being a monarchist has anything to do with it. My point, for the two or three other readers that don't respond, is that when we see these trade decisions as if they were a hockey-fight, we will not understand our situation.

We have to face facts -- we are a part of a larger commercial empire, and there are 'dues' that have to be paid for membership. You might say, Oh yeah? at the start and wish you hadn't shortly afterwards.

These are the facts. The US is the world's biggest economy, and it is where the customers are. Canada is always going to be like Scotland was to England, vis-a-vis the USA. They are ten times our population and more than ten times our economy. Even so, easily a third of our economy is dependent on their markets.

On top of that, we are dependent upon them for our defence, and in other ways.

We just have to deal with this as an existential condition. Nothing that isn't catastrophic for us is going to change those facts.

My feeling -- as nobody can "know" -- is that we would be better off if we dove right in. I suppose this is what queenmandy means when he says he is a monarchist -- he craves a different kind of dependence, one more familiar and more trusted.

I can understand that.
RCO





Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 8665
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votes: 3
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this poll has some interesting numbers of what a Bernier lead party might do in an election , although done after his high profile departure . so its unclear if these numbers and % could hold long term


but his party could poll 13 % nationwide


10 % in BC ( whats interesting about BC is most of his support actually comes from the liberals and that ndp could have a lead in BC cause of his party )


18 % in alberta


11 % in Ontario ( in Ontario he takes votes away from the conservatives and ndp but not liberals , even if he were to only take a small 10% of the vote it will be enough to take a tied race between cpc and liberals to a 5 point liberal lead , essentially meaning the liberals would win the election due to number of Ontario seats )



15 % in quebec ( in quebec he takes votes from the liberals and conservatives but brings the cpc down to 11 % province wide , low enough they'd likely lose seats not gain as they had hoped )


9 % in atlantic Canada



http://abacusdata.ca/will-max-.....ive-party/
Bugs





Joined: 16 Dec 2009
Posts: 5675
Reputation: 281.4
votes: 8

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the real world of politics, where power is at stake, leaders have to deal with people like Bernier if they want to win.

In the real world of politics, only a political dunce would let this happen, let alone precipitate it. Face it, folks, the leadership of the Conservative Party is as distant from the issues that move the people as the Liberals are.

How could you think that you should split the party over something -- supply management -- that is (1) Liberal policy and (2) explicitly the opposite of a free market policy? Further, that will increase the spending power of Canadians? How could you have so little judgement as a leader?

This article hint at the consequences.

There still is time, but it requires doofus, oops -- Andrew -- to wake up and stop being a beta. Nobody wants a beta male as a leader. Patch this up, or lose the next election.
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Bernier quits in frustraton!

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