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RCO





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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

true the liberals don't seem to know what there doing , there clearly at plan c or plan d by now , its a campaign with no realistic likelihood of success at this point


but in questioning the timing of the election we must remember august 2013 , that's when wynne held 5 by elections in ridings that had been vacated by high profile liberals after mcguinty left

the idea of 5 by elections in the middle of the summer was virtually unthinkable at the time but the liberals called them anyways , so at this point anything is possible . it seems they will call the election for June 7th as there nominating candidates like crazy but who knows for sure


but at this point the pc's still have the upper hand , which is why I'm left wondering as to the reason there not running any tv ad's or replying to the liberals accusations


sure everyone knows the content is made up but its still out there , they claimed everything from ford was going to cut back the minimum wage , to ending rent controls , to restricting abortions , plus cutting 40,000 jobs


all of this is made up entirely , they quote liberal media reports as there sources but none of these ideas are in the pc policy for the election , which is why they still need to respond strongly to these false accusations by the liberals
Bugs





Joined: 16 Dec 2009
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votes: 8

PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RCO, don't rule out the possibility that they have no positive move that they can make, because 75% of the population wishes she'd just go away.

More problems for Wynne ...

Quote:
In scathing pre-election report, Ontario auditor general says deficit is $11.7B, not $6.7B
The accounting disagreement stems from a longstanding dispute over whether around $11 billion in the OPSEU and the Ontario Teachers’ pension plans can be counted toward the bottom line.

By ROBERT BENZIEQueen's Park Bureau Chief
Wed., April 25, 2018

Ontario’s fiscal watchdog is warning that the province’s deficit projections are billions of dollars more than disclosed in last month’s budget.

Auditor General Bonnie Lysyk, who is in an ongoing accounting dispute with Premier Kathleen Wynne’s Liberals, said this year’s shortfall is $11.7 billion, not $6.7 billion, as Finance Minister Charles Sousa forecast March 28.

“When expenses are understated, the perception is created that government has more money available than it actually does,” Lysyk wrote Wednesday in a scathing 27-page pre-election report to the Legislature.

“Government decision-makers might, therefore, allocate money to initiatives and programs that is actually needed to pay for expenses the government has failed to record properly,” she continued. [....]
https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2018/04/25/in-scathing-pre-election-report-auditor-general-says-deficit-is-117b-not-67b.html


I think that's accounting-talk for "THESE BOOKS HAVE BEEN COOKED!"

(Why don't we start calling her "Crooked Kate"? ...)

Imagine the people back at the War Room, RCO, as they try to respond to that, Nost of the public that's listenng knows damn well that the reason this is a 'surprise' is because of all the previous lies.

So what are they going to say that people aren't going to think is a lie? That's their "marketing problem" -- few people are taking them seriously or are even listening to them.

Let's see if Ford can come up with a good gag caption to sum up this picture of mismanagement.
Toronto Centre





Joined: 12 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RCO wrote:

sure everyone knows the content is made up

Sure...everybody!!! Oh wait....considering it IS true what he has said ...now what?
You can have an opinion , but cannot change the facts.
Quote:

all of this is made up entirely ,
Only your words are.

I have no idea why you present this as fact, the only fact that seems indefutable is that Ford is going to be Premier.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh jeez, there he goes again ...

(((S-P-E-C-U-L-A-T-I-N-G)))

It's permitted.

That's what ROC's doing. He's trying to figure out the Liberal's strategy because the top dudes seem to be running off at the mouth in a way that reveals desperation and frustration -- which isn't the best "look" for a group that's pretending they're going to save us from big bad Doug Ford and the Progressive Conservative barbarians.

TC, why do you do this so much? It doesn't contribute to the conversation. RCO and I are quietly discussing the why's of it. I think it's the way organizations operate. They allocate tasks, and await for the leader to animate them. And if the leadership -- which is more than Wynne -- is stunned and confused by their reception, it prevents the organization from functioning. RCO says maybe to that, and brings up real cases -- facts -- that are relevant to the discussion. We just gnaw that bone a bit ...

You seem to be denying that there is any confusion.

OK, lay out your case. Us 'ham & eggers' are slow, yah know ...
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RCO wrote:
true the liberals don't seem to know what there doing , there clearly at plan c or plan d by now , its a campaign with no realistic likelihood of success at this point


I would imagine they felt the selection of Doug Ford would have had a more immediate impact on the polls than they saw

Then I would think they assumed the budget would at a minimum bring them up a few more points in the polls;

The challenge is they haven't found their traction issue yet, and they need to go from issue to issue at a rapid pace to assure they find something within the next 40 days or so.

Attempting to define Doug Ford as "whatever" is an expected approached at this point, as I have said elsewhere the general approach to this pre-election period seems to be

"Yeah, we are awful, but look the other guy....please look at the other guy......why won't you look at the other guy....."

Going after Ford personally is the easiest route forward;

The PCs simply need to focus on the message they have held consistently across their leader, their MPPs, and their candidates: We will respect your money

Just don't get into the mud for the next 40 days.
Bugs





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votes: 8

PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on, Cosmo, I am willing to believe that the Liberal top dogs are vile, greedy apparatchiks -- but not stupid. At least not as stupid as to think they have an "issue with traction" to work with ...

Let's amuse ourselves by speculating on what that would be? Perhaps the dire threat that Ford poses to transsexuals? Perhaps the fear that those extra bathrooms installed in former high school janatorial broom closets will be closed?

If they can't stampede the 905 with threats to civil service jobs, what will work?

As I see it, all they have is fear, and as long as fat, jovial Doug Ford keeps making wisecracks about where the money went, the fear tactics won't work. Why? Becausel fear is already playing a big role in the election, and it's fear of another term for the Wynne government!

They have no issues. They tried to buy the election, and the Letterkenny folks are saying "Nuts" to that.

It's not a horse-race, it's an execution.
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:


That's what ROC's doing. He's trying to figure out the Liberal's strategy

What are you going on about?
I never commented on anyones strategy , just the bs of 'sure everyone knows the content is made up'
Thats all.
The fatc that most of it is true means....what?
Quote:

TC, why do you do this so much? It doesn't contribute to the conversation. RCO and I are quietly discussing the why's of it.

Fine. Talk using the truth instead of bs.
Its easy.
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
Come on, Cosmo, I am willing to believe that the Liberal top dogs are vile, greedy apparatchiks -- but not stupid. At least not as stupid as to think they have an "issue with traction" to work with ...

Let's amuse ourselves by speculating on what that would be? Perhaps the dire threat that Ford poses to transsexuals? Perhaps the fear that those extra bathrooms installed in former high school janatorial broom closets will be closed?

If they can't stampede the 905 with threats to civil service jobs, what will work?

As I see it, all they have is fear, and as long as fat, jovial Doug Ford keeps making wisecracks about where the money went, the fear tactics won't work. Why? Becausel fear is already playing a big role in the election, and it's fear of another term for the Wynne government!

They have no issues. They tried to buy the election, and the Letterkenny folks are saying "Nuts" to that.

It's not a horse-race, it's an execution.


At the moment I would agree its certainly not looking like a horse race;
However I am old enough to remember the pending coronation of Lyn McLeod in 1995 to know that you don't win till the ballots are counted.

If the PCs win I will raise a glass, but we aren't at the finish line yet.

The discussion centered around "the next step" or the "plan d" for the OLP;
My comment regarding them having to find a traction issue is exactly that, they need something to run on as the current approach appears to not be working.

They may never find that issue, but it won't stop them from trying over the next few weeks to find it.

I do agree that their primary approach at the moment is pulling the "Fear" card;
Fear Doug Ford, Fear Mike Harris, Fear what happened "last time" the PCs were in power.

It understandable why;
They lack an alternative route forward, they are married to the promises in the budget while their advocates demand that Doug Ford provided a "costed" platform in an ultimate irony.

They have backed themselves into a corner that they can't exactly give us daycare, dental and a pony in every garage AND THEN offer a reduction on the PST or a reduction to the income tax rate or balanced budgets, reduced debt, etc.

The budget which was their platform seemingly didn't move the needle and I would imagine a good part of their platform was that budget.

That is a huge problem if you are the OLP

However to expect the OLP to simply just roll over is unrealistic;
There is something else coming, there is another route to try, and another issue to champion and we should expect that.
RCO





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Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
Oh jeez, there he goes again ...

(((S-P-E-C-U-L-A-T-I-N-G)))

It's permitted.

That's what ROC's doing. He's trying to figure out the Liberal's strategy because the top dudes seem to be running off at the mouth in a way that reveals desperation and frustration -- which isn't the best "look" for a group that's pretending they're going to save us from big bad Doug Ford and the Progressive Conservative barbarians.

TC, why do you do this so much? It doesn't contribute to the conversation. RCO and I are quietly discussing the why's of it. I think it's the way organizations operate. They allocate tasks, and await for the leader to animate them. And if the leadership -- which is more than Wynne -- is stunned and confused by their reception, it prevents the organization from functioning. RCO says maybe to that, and brings up real cases -- facts -- that are relevant to the discussion. We just gnaw that bone a bit ...

You seem to be denying that there is any confusion.

OK, lay out your case. Us 'ham & eggers' are slow, yah know ...




guess that I was trying to figure out where this was headed next ? seem like the next move is the actual call of the election , seems unlikely there will be any significant legislation in the legislature before that



I couldn't see how anyone could come out and say the liberal attack ads were truthful , when have the pc's ever said they were going to eliminate rent controls ? reduce the minimum wage below $14 an hour or restrict access to abortion in Ontario


its all entirely made up , not one of this items is part of the pc platform or has doug ford discussed as a potential priority if he were to win the election , its all been made up by liberal spin doctors desperate to keep there high paying government jobs , they'll do nothing to help the little guy find work but do anything to keep what they have
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RCO wrote:

I couldn't see how anyone could come out and say the liberal attack ads were truthful ,

So you are either this stupid or dont want to know the truth.

So which is it?
Quote:
when have the pc's ever said they were going to eliminate rent controls ? reduce the minimum wage below $14 an hour or restrict access to abortion in Ontario


Lets try this.... When did the Liberals sy the PC's were going to do any of those?
How about never.
Its Dog Ford they are going on about.

Just dont see the need to read BS from anyone.

Next up I hope not to hear the sun rises in the west....cuz thats what you are peddling here.
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't this really a blurred line we are dancing on?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ontario-liberals-go-on-offensive-seeking-to-tell-voters-about-the/

Quote:
The first ad lists a number of Mr. Ford’s political positions and their expected impact, backed by references to media outlets. It says Mr. Ford will grant tax cuts to corporations, oppose minimum wage increases, restrict access to abortion services and cancel measures to mitigate climate change. Citing research by economist Mike Moffatt, the ad claims Mr. Ford would need to fire 40,000 people, including teachers and nurses, to balance the budget.

“The real Doug Ford, he’d be comfortable living in that kind of Ontario. Would you?” the 30-second spot concludes.


Implying that these are changes that would be enacted if Ford won would imply the PCs would be in power and as Ford (assuming he becomes an MPP) has a singular vote in the legislature and as such cannot pass anything alone.

By stating that the "Mr. Ford will grant" would imply that a majority of the legislature would vote for such legislation does it not? Or am I simply out to lunch here?

Granted, had the ads stated "Mr. Ford Believes" that would have been a radically different claim, but it appears the OLP is implying these will be the marching orders of the PCs if they are elected.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are looking at these advertisments like a lawyer. There is a disclaimer at the beginning ... but advertising works on the basis of repetition, and the association of dertain words and symbols with the target. They can be good associations or bad, but that's how it works.

Despite the disclaimer, they are trying to associate Ford with all of these positions. To claim that they are not isn't being honest.

Ad professionals make fun of the idea that people make rational choices.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toronto Centre wrote:
Bugs wrote:


That's what ROC's doing. He's trying to figure out the Liberal's strategy

What are you going on about?
I never commented on anyones strategy , just the bs of 'sure everyone knows the content is made up'
Thats all.
The fatc that most of it is true means....what?
Quote:

TC, why do you do this so much? It doesn't contribute to the conversation. RCO and I are quietly discussing the why's of it.

Fine. Talk using the truth instead of bs.
Its easy.


What makes you the censor around here? I challenge you to make your claim specific. What is the 'truth' that we're ignoring? What have we said that is over the limits in a speculative conversation? Come on, it's easy.

You act like you wear a striped shirt and have a whistle hanging around your neck.

If we are ignoring the positive assets that the Liberals have in this campaign, you should point it out. We may squeal (probably not) but if we are that far off-base, we'd probably quietly be grateful for the course correction.
RCO





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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

( this Toronto star article highlights the liberal problems with ford , his supporters don't care about his past , not seen as relevant and wynne is so unpopular she is not seen as a credible alternative to ford if your on the right politically )


Ford voters don’t care about his past


Premier Kathleen Wynne is flummoxed on how to combat the controversial Tory leader, writes Bob Hepburn



Privately, senior Liberals concede one of the reasons Doug Ford, right, has maintained his solid lead in the polls over Premier Kathleen Wynne, left, is that his supporters don’t care what he has said or done in the past, writes Bob Hepburn.



By Bob HepburnStar Columnist

Wed., April 25, 2018



With time fast running out and polls showing she’s headed for a major defeat, Kathleen Wynne is desperately trying to find a way to beat Doug Ford in the June 7 Ontario election.

The embattled Ontario premier has read Hillary Clinton’s book, What Happened, looking for clues about what worked and didn’t work for Clinton against Donald Trump in the 2016 U.S. presidential campaign.

Wynne’s also studied the televised debates between Trump and Clinton as she gets ready for a series of debates with Ford and NDP leader Andrea Horwath. Clinton is considered to have won all three debates, with Trump lashing out at Clinton while Clinton remained cool and calm even though her campaign was faltering.

In addition, Wynne has tried to appeal to lower- and middle-income voters who might lean Ford’s way by promising everything from free tuition for many post-secondary students, expanded daycare, pharmacare, higher minimum wages and more.

And she’s test-run several differing campaign styles, at first taking the high road in her approach to Ford, but lately switching to openly tough attacks on the Tory leader.


None of it, though, is working. Simply, Wynne is flummoxed on how best to go after Ford.

Privately, senior Liberals concede one of the main reasons Ford has maintained his solid lead in the polls is that his supporters simply don’t care what he has done or said in the past. That’s true even if it is shown that he’s a badly flawed candidate with a long, well-reported background of bullying, abusive behaviour and questionable judgment.

Indeed, this “I-don’t-care” attitude toward Ford by his loyalists is hauntingly similar to the attitude toward Donald Trump by his fans while he was campaigning for the U.S. presidency.

It was so pronounced that Trump famously declared at a rally in Iowa that his supporters were so loyal they’d stick with him even if he were to shoot someone in downtown New York.

It’s the same phenomenon with Ford supporters. Here are some examples:

Ford was reported by the Globe and Mail to have been a drug dealer for a number of years in the 1980s. Ford denied the allegations, but never sued the paper for libel or challenged them in court, later suggesting a lawsuit would be “a waste of time.

But Ford fans don’t care.

He accused the father of an autistic boy of waging a “jihad” and told him to “go to hell.”

But Ford fans don’t care.

In 2016, Ford was found by Toronto’s integrity commissioner to have broken the city‘s code of conduct when he was a councillor by improperly using his influence in municipal matters pertaining to two firms that were clients of his Deco Labels, his family-owned company.

But Ford fans don’t care.

While a councillor he urged the city to consider an expensive, laughable plan to develop the Toronto Port Lands area with a monorail, a boat-in hotel and the world’s biggest Ferris wheel.

Ford fans still don’t care.

After attacking the leadership of his own party about how they ran the central party operations, Ford took the unprecedented step last weekend of appointing 11 Tory candidates, including the son of former premier Mike Harris, who had lost a nomination contest in a nearby riding, to run in the June election.

But Ford fans don’t care.

He has said he wants to fire the head of Hydro One because of his big salary, even though he has no authority to do that. He’s vowed to cut $6 billion in spending, although he had no plan to do so. He’s vowed to slash Ontario’s corporate tax rate although it already is the lowest in Canada. He has yet to unveil his campaign platform.

But Ford fans don’t care.

He’s called a Toronto Star reporter a “little bitch,” told a Globe and Mail reporter to get “off her lazy ass,” and called journalists “a bunch of pricks.”

But Ford’s fans don’t care.

With attitudes like that, it seems Ford supporters will stay with him regardless of what happens in the official campaign period. If that happens, defeat is certain for Wynne.


https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/04/25/ford-voters-dont-care-about-his-past.html
RCO





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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cosmostein wrote:
Isn't this really a blurred line we are dancing on?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ontario-liberals-go-on-offensive-seeking-to-tell-voters-about-the/

Quote:
The first ad lists a number of Mr. Ford’s political positions and their expected impact, backed by references to media outlets. It says Mr. Ford will grant tax cuts to corporations, oppose minimum wage increases, restrict access to abortion services and cancel measures to mitigate climate change. Citing research by economist Mike Moffatt, the ad claims Mr. Ford would need to fire 40,000 people, including teachers and nurses, to balance the budget.

“The real Doug Ford, he’d be comfortable living in that kind of Ontario. Would you?” the 30-second spot concludes.


Implying that these are changes that would be enacted if Ford won would imply the PCs would be in power and as Ford (assuming he becomes an MPP) has a singular vote in the legislature and as such cannot pass anything alone.

By stating that the "Mr. Ford will grant" would imply that a majority of the legislature would vote for such legislation does it not? Or am I simply out to lunch here?

Granted, had the ads stated "Mr. Ford Believes" that would have been a radically different claim, but it appears the OLP is implying these will be the marching orders of the PCs if they are elected.



its true the pc's have called for corporate tax cuts but in the past the liberals supported the idea , has been federal budgets that cut corporate income tax rates , as to why its suddenly now scary ? perhaps a sign of how radically left wing the liberals have become , turning into Bernie sanders liberals not Paul Martin liberals


the pc's were against the minimum wage increase but there policy position on it clearly stated they won't repeal the increase and would raise it gradually by 25 cents a year until it huts $15 an hour , what is scary about that ?


the abortion issue is purely crazy , the pc's have never campaigned on the issue provincially in recent years , there has never been a policy resolution passed at any conventions about wanting to restrict abortion access in Ontario , to say otherwise like the liberals claim is pure lies . this is not a policy issue the pc's are focused on and I have no idea why the unions are so obsessed about abortion to begin with ?


the 40,000 job cuts claim comes from a left wing think tank associated with the liberals , its also made up . ford has clearly stated he does not plan major job cuts to the civil service and will instead find other ways to save money
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