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RCO





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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:31 pm    Post subject: Liberal caucus proposes to decriminlize illegal drugs Reply with quote

( its unclear exactly what this proposal would involve , there not talking about creating a legal market place for drugs like cocaine yet but rather decriminalizing simple possession of most drugs )


Tories pan Liberal caucus proposal to decriminalize use of all illegal drugs


The Canadian Press January 29, 2018


OTTAWA — The war on drugs may move to a new battlefield in Canada, if Liberal MPs get their way: the 2019 federal election campaign.

They're pushing the Trudeau government to go much further than legalizing recreational marijuana. In a priority resolution they hope will be adopted at the Liberals' policy convention in April for inclusion in the next election platform, the national caucus is calling on the government to eliminate criminal penalties for simple possession and consumption of all illicit drugs.

Newly-minted NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh has taken a similar stance.

But the Conservatives, who have opposed many elements of the plan to legalize pot by July, are signalling that they would object to decriminalizing the use of other, harder drugs even more strenuously.

"The Conservatives haven't been satisfied or in any way pleased with what they're doing in the area of marijuana. I think it's going to be a complete mess in this country," Conservative justice critic Rob Nicholson said in an interview.

"That being said, to expand this ... to do anything that does anything except discourage people from taking opioids and strong drugs I think is a mistake," he added.

"If you're saying it's OK to consume this, you're not sending out the message here that this is a huge problem that tears families apart, destroys peoples' health, decreases the safety within this country. Because who's going to be providing them with this? These are the criminal elements."

Many Conservatives feared legalization of pot would be just the first step towards legalizing other, harder drugs. But Nicholson said he's frankly surprised that Liberal MPs aren't even waiting to see how legalizing cannabis works out before starting down that slippery slope.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has repeatedly ruled out legalization of drugs other than cannabis. He has not so far commented on the resolution advanced by his own caucus, which does not actually go so far as to advocate legalization of other drugs.

Rather, the caucus is proposing that Canada adopt the model that has proven successful in Portugal in significantly reducing overdose deaths, decreasing illicit drug use and reducing the social cost of drug abuse.

Since 2001, Portugal has expanded treatment and harm reduction services, such as safe injection sites, and eliminated criminal penalties for simple possession and consumption of all illegal drugs. A person found in possession of a drug for personal use is no longer arrested but ordered to appear before a "dissuasion commission" which can refer the person to a treatment program or impose administrative sanctions.

"We see on all the metrics that matter, in terms of a public health approach, positive success stories," Toronto Liberal MP Nathaniel Erskine-Smith said in an interview.

"We're certainly not talking about legalizing all drugs here. We're talking about a step that would decriminalize (drug use) ... I think the easiest way of thinking about it is we currently use the criminal justice system to tackle drug abuse and let's use the health system as much as possible to tackle drug abuse instead."

In a recent byelection in Toronto's Scarborough-Agincourt, the Conservative candidate ran social media ads, one of which featured a grainy photo of a junkie injecting heroin into his arm. The ads warned voters about the Liberals' plan to legalize pot and create more safe injection sites.

"The Trudeau Liberals want to bring dangerous drugs into our community," one ad asserted. "The Liberals are rushing to legalizing (sic) marijuana despite concerns being raised by police and health professionals. And now they want to legalize prescription heroin!"

It's not hard to imagine how much sharper Conservative attacks would become if the Liberal party adopts the caucus proposal. But Erskine-Smith said Liberals shouldn't let that deter them.

"If the Conservatives want to ignore the evidence and lash out in some tough-on-crime way, I say have at it. It hasn't worked in the past and I don't think it will work," he said.

"I hope we're past the point of worrying whether Canadians are going to buy into this idea ... It doesn't matter what political stripe you are, if you care about the evidence and you care about what works, I think you've got to get past the politics of it and what the easy attack ad is and follow the evidence to save lives."

Joan Bryden, The Canadian Press


https://ca.news.yahoo.com/tories-pan-liberal-caucus-proposal-131419891.html
Bugs





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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do people link marijuana and these more serious drugs?

I know why. It was because a previous propaganda characterized marijuana as "the gateway drug" ... implying that its use put someone on a slippery slope to a place nobody wants to go.

And for a while, it did seem to have some currency. Drug use tends to form in clusters. Marijuana users are also likely to use hash and cocaine. People who used amphetamines also use other 'speedy' drugs and will inject. Another cluster is the mind-altering drugs, which are things like LSD, MDA, and a bunch of 'designer' drugs. I don't know about opioid users, but these are the really damaging drugs, at the moment.

They are all different, and marijuana is no more a gateway to a wide variety of bad drugs than tobacco.

I see both sides of this argument. It would be great if the 'war on drugs' approach worked, but it doesn't. But what does? Safe-injection sites? (I am waiting for Vancouver to set up a 'safe place' where people can eat their Tide pods without shame or health risk.)
johnm





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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this another useless hill for the CPC to die on?

Illegal drugs are already in your neighborhood, prohibition and the war on drugs hasn't worked. Plenty of evidence from Portugal and others that drug use and deaths go down after decriminalizing.

Weed will be legal for a year by the time the next election comes around.
Seems like a wedge issue for the next election depending how things go.
Instead of focusing on deficits and controlling spending, it'll be a distraction.

http://www.independent.co.uk/n.....01780.html
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnm wrote:
Plenty of evidence from Portugal and others that drug use and deaths go down after decriminalizing.

Portugal has the lowest death rate from drugs of anyone over there in Europe.


"Among Portuguese adults, there are 3 drug overdose deaths for every 1,000,000 citizens. Comparable numbers in other countries range from 10.2 per million in the Netherlands to 44.6 per million in the UK, all the way up to 126.8 per million in Estonia. The EU average is 17.3 per million."
http://www.independent.co.uk/n.....01780.html



The Police agencies and their braying the world will collapse is a crock of shite. They should be encouraging this , not fighting it.

Oh but of course., how silly of me, it would mean they dont get to beef up the income pots and all the neat gear they tell us they need.

Cops can kiss me arse.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The data about Portugal is stunning. I think they were developing a real problem with drugs when they 'legalized'. It would be really worth studying.

According to this article, the death rate in Portugal is 6 million in the 15 to 64 age group. In Spain, it's 15. In the USA, it's 180! That'd be about 60,000 people a year.
RCO





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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toronto Centre wrote:
johnm wrote:
Plenty of evidence from Portugal and others that drug use and deaths go down after decriminalizing.

Portugal has the lowest death rate from drugs of anyone over there in Europe.


"Among Portuguese adults, there are 3 drug overdose deaths for every 1,000,000 citizens. Comparable numbers in other countries range from 10.2 per million in the Netherlands to 44.6 per million in the UK, all the way up to 126.8 per million in Estonia. The EU average is 17.3 per million."
http://www.independent.co.uk/n.....01780.html



The Police agencies and their braying the world will collapse is a crock of shite. They should be encouraging this , not fighting it.

Oh but of course., how silly of me, it would mean they dont get to beef up the income pots and all the neat gear they tell us they need.

Cops can kiss me arse.



there is no doubt a crisis in north America related to drug overdoses and drug overdose deaths

however I fail to see how legalising hard drugs would solve anything ?

there is already a mercy rule , that if someone is overdosing they can call the police for help and not be charged with simple possession

so where does legalising simple possession of cocaine or heroin get us ? how does it get us out of this mess ?
RCO





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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
The data about Portugal is stunning. I think they were developing a real problem with drugs when they 'legalized'. It would be really worth studying.

According to this article, the death rate in Portugal is 6 million in the 15 to 64 age group. In Spain, it's 15. In the USA, it's 180! That'd be about 60,000 people a year.


I don't know if the drug situation in Portugal when they altered there drugs laws is really similar to where things are today in north America .

Portugal is a small country in Europe of only 10 million people

the drug situation in parts of Canada is more severe than people realise , the amount of users and drug dealers in some of these places is rather high

if someone currently is making $1000's of dollars on the side selling cocaine , why would they stop if simple possession was legalised and there customers no longer had to worry about being charged ? often the smaller players get caught with drugs and give up the bigger players
RCO





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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnm wrote:
Is this another useless hill for the CPC to die on?

Illegal drugs are already in your neighborhood, prohibition and the war on drugs hasn't worked. Plenty of evidence from Portugal and others that drug use and deaths go down after decriminalizing.

Weed will be legal for a year by the time the next election comes around.
Seems like a wedge issue for the next election depending how things go.
Instead of focusing on deficits and controlling spending, it'll be a distraction.

http://www.independent.co.uk/n.....01780.html



I'm not sure what effect this issue would have on the next election ,


the conservatives tough on crime policy from the harper era , had actually been popular in some urban ridings .

the liberals now plan to go soft on crime , so soft there thinking about giving out more freebies to the drug community than just legalising marijuana , apparently pot wasn't enough ,these people want there coke and heroin too in order to get them out to the polls and vote liberal

its too early to say what effect this policy would have on the election campaign , not sure what demographic the liberals would be going after campaigning for weaker drug laws ?

seem to remember one of Hilary Clinton's campaign policies was reduced sentencing for crack convictions , because it was unpopular among the black communities where many people had been arrested and the sentence for crack was longer than powder cocaine , but it didn't seem to help her out much
Bugs





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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RCO wrote:
Bugs wrote:
The data about Portugal is stunning. I think they were developing a real problem with drugs when they 'legalized'. It would be really worth studying.

According to this article, the death rate in Portugal is 6 million in the 15 to 64 age group. In Spain, it's 15. In the USA, it's 180! That'd be about 60,000 people a year.


I don't know if the drug situation in Portugal when they altered there drugs laws is really similar to where things are today in north America .

Portugal is a small country in Europe of only 10 million people

the drug situation in parts of Canada is more severe than people realise , the amount of users and drug dealers in some of these places is rather high

if someone currently is making $1000's of dollars on the side selling cocaine , why would they stop if simple possession was legalised and there customers no longer had to worry about being charged ? often the smaller players get caught with drugs and give up the bigger players


Portugal used to be a small nation of 10 million -- with African colonies. Now it is part of the EU, and effectively has no borders. Or it's a province in a country of 300 million.

This is the logic for expecting a drop in usage. Portugal didn't experience such a big drop in usage, it stopped the recruitment of new people into drug use.

The "war on drugs" effectively construct a tariff around the product, keeping its price high, and the risk of being caught high. But it always works out that drugs corrupt police and the administration of justice. Always. So it means that drug enterprises either get busted or become big enough to pay the bribes/extortion of law enforcement and the administration of justice, who, of course, want part of the action.

Trust me, it's like that in Canada, at some level. Not at Mexico levels, but at some level. Ditto with Europe. So, with legalization, what should happen is the cartels disappear. The present users continue to use, but their numbers decrease much faster than new recruits come into the habit. Why? Because it loses it's chic quality, for one thing. It may be that more people try these things without becoming addicts. When I was in Toronto, running with a fast crowd, I watched as a bunch of younger gay guys went from severe cocaine/crack usage to MDA, and they just lost the cocaine habit. They even stopped stealing from the till.

This is the root truth about addiction. If the drugs are expensive, addicts need to sell some drugs to make the money to carry their own addiction. So, the kilo of whatever arrives, and whoever buys that splits it into a number of shares and keeps the rest. And those guys take those shares, of say 100 grams, and sell 10-gram pieces to people who then sell ever smaller pieces for ever larger amounts of money. As you get to the bottom of the pyramid, the street dealers, there aren't enough people to keep them going. They sell sex, they steal, they do whatever. Those people only make enough to carry their own habits from the drug. So as long as the drugs are expensive, there is a huge pressure on addicts to sell drugs. As they get cheaper and more available, there is less and less chance of doing that.

Don't expect legalization of these drugs -- or whatever it really is in Portugal -- to cause death rates to go to Portugese levels. But in the longer term, as the addicts grow older, they go to jail, or straighten out, or join the Sally Ann. Or die.

It works by lowering the rate at which new users are created. As the drug subculture groups get smaller, as the drug loses the lustre of fast money and easy women. it just implodes to a precious few people picking the scabs off their girlfriend and smoking them.
RCO





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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
RCO wrote:
Bugs wrote:
The data about Portugal is stunning. I think they were developing a real problem with drugs when they 'legalized'. It would be really worth studying.

According to this article, the death rate in Portugal is 6 million in the 15 to 64 age group. In Spain, it's 15. In the USA, it's 180! That'd be about 60,000 people a year.


I don't know if the drug situation in Portugal when they altered there drugs laws is really similar to where things are today in north America .

Portugal is a small country in Europe of only 10 million people

the drug situation in parts of Canada is more severe than people realise , the amount of users and drug dealers in some of these places is rather high

if someone currently is making $1000's of dollars on the side selling cocaine , why would they stop if simple possession was legalised and there customers no longer had to worry about being charged ? often the smaller players get caught with drugs and give up the bigger players


Portugal used to be a small nation of 10 million -- with African colonies. Now it is part of the EU, and effectively has no borders. Or it's a province in a country of 300 million.

This is the logic for expecting a drop in usage. Portugal didn't experience such a big drop in usage, it stopped the recruitment of new people into drug use.

The "war on drugs" effectively construct a tariff around the product, keeping its price high, and the risk of being caught high. But it always works out that drugs corrupt police and the administration of justice. Always. So it means that drug enterprises either get busted or become big enough to pay the bribes/extortion of law enforcement and the administration of justice, who, of course, want part of the action.

Trust me, it's like that in Canada, at some level. Not at Mexico levels, but at some level. Ditto with Europe. So, with legalization, what should happen is the cartels disappear. The present users continue to use, but their numbers decrease much faster than new recruits come into the habit. Why? Because it loses it's chic quality, for one thing. It may be that more people try these things without becoming addicts. When I was in Toronto, running with a fast crowd, I watched as a bunch of younger gay guys went from severe cocaine/crack usage to MDA, and they just lost the cocaine habit. They even stopped stealing from the till.

This is the root truth about addiction. If the drugs are expensive, addicts need to sell some drugs to make the money to carry their own addiction. So, the kilo of whatever arrives, and whoever buys that splits it into a number of shares and keeps the rest. And those guys take those shares, of say 100 grams, and sell 10-gram pieces to people who then sell ever smaller pieces for ever larger amounts of money. As you get to the bottom of the pyramid, the street dealers, there aren't enough people to keep them going. They sell sex, they steal, they do whatever. Those people only make enough to carry their own habits from the drug. So as long as the drugs are expensive, there is a huge pressure on addicts to sell drugs. As they get cheaper and more available, there is less and less chance of doing that.

Don't expect legalization of these drugs -- or whatever it really is in Portugal -- to cause death rates to go to Portugese levels. But in the longer term, as the addicts grow older, they go to jail, or straighten out, or join the Sally Ann. Or die.

It works by lowering the rate at which new users are created. As the drug subculture groups get smaller, as the drug loses the lustre of fast money and easy women. it just implodes to a precious few people picking the scabs off their girlfriend and smoking them.



I agree that something about the current anti drug strategy is not working , although I don't see what the benefits to legalisation would be at this point

what's especially troubling about the rise in drug use , is its mostly among young people , when you read articles about drug busts here , often the people being arrested are in there 20's or 30's ,

there kids were suppose to be the drug free generation but instead are turning into the hard drug generation , doing even worse and more deadly drugs than there parents tried . they had went thru anti drug education in high school , DARE and racing against drugs and opp presentations but none of it worked not at all

I remember reading that the teen pregnancy rate went way down once the TV show Teen Mom came out and teen girls saw what being a teen mom was really about and how it wasn't fun at all

myself I think the anti drug education in high school needs to shift gears and become much more realistic , they need to be showing these kids what its really like to become a drug addict , pictures and video's of overdoes and even deaths . video's of what the daily life of a heroin addict is really like .

stop telling them its bad and dangerous , that just makes them want to try it more .show them the real dirt , show them a video of someone dying from a fentanyl overdose whatever it takes
Bugs





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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may ask why young people are getting so deeply involved with opioids.

The theories suggest it's a lack of integration in social networks that lead to a variety of suicidal behaviour. Isolation leads to insecurity which leads to more isolation, cynicism, sadism, a lot of freaky stuff. This is where the idea of alienation gets involved.

My bet is young people who can see no economic future for themselves will lose ambition, and start to experience life in a painful way. That's what it is about drugs and alcohol -- they allow people to escape their real-life situations. If they come out of single-parent homes or homes where there is no father present, their risk probably doubles. It usually doesn't matter if mom brings home another guy.

That's a summary of the social science. I would go beyond that to say that it must be demoralizing to be a boy in our public schools these days. They belong to the group that has screwed up everything, they are told, and they have to prove, in some sense, that they aren't going to continue their father's practices, which are characterized as oppressive, as well as racist, sexist, and homophobic.

You add all this up, and the smart boys must find the path tough. The dumb ones, impossible.
RCO





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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
You may ask why young people are getting so deeply involved with opioids.

The theories suggest it's a lack of integration in social networks that lead to a variety of suicidal behaviour. Isolation leads to insecurity which leads to more isolation, cynicism, sadism, a lot of freaky stuff. This is where the idea of alienation gets involved.

My bet is young people who can see no economic future for themselves will lose ambition, and start to experience life in a painful way. That's what it is about drugs and alcohol -- they allow people to escape their real-life situations. If they come out of single-parent homes or homes where there is no father present, their risk probably doubles. It usually doesn't matter if mom brings home another guy.

That's a summary of the social science. I would go beyond that to say that it must be demoralizing to be a boy in our public schools these days. They belong to the group that has screwed up everything, they are told, and they have to prove, in some sense, that they aren't going to continue their father's practices, which are characterized as oppressive, as well as racist, sexist, and homophobic.

You add all this up, and the smart boys must find the path tough. The dumb ones, impossible.


still whatever the reasons are for people getting into opioids , one has to ask what difference would it make if small amounts were declared legal ? a lot of these opioids are prescription medication and often legal to begin with , what happens is someone steals them or sells there prescription illegally

its also know that even small amounts of these drugs can be deadly , it only requires a small amount of fentanyl to cause death ? are the liberals really going to say someone can legally possess a substance that is know to cause death even in small amounts ?

and what about drugs that are used as date rape drugs ? would they also be legal under this plan ? could someone legally possess a pill that could be used to rape someone at the bar with ?

on the street even a small amount of cocaine or fentanyl can be lucrative and sold for a lot of money , how would the police determine what is for personal use and what is being sold illegally ?


the argument for legalising possession amounts of hard drugs sounds similar to why they wanted to originally decriminalise marijuana 10 or so years ago . they weren't talking about creating a legal market and stores 10 years ago .

they originally just wanted to decriminalise it so young people and teens wouldn't get criminal records or weren't filing the courts with minor possession charges . they never talked about doing the things they plan to now .

in 5 to 10 years down the road , is the government going to be legally selling cocaine and heroin in the same stores that they plan to sell marijuana in and how would this possible benefit society as a whole ?
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RCO wrote:

in 5 to 10 years down the road , is the government going to be legally selling cocaine and heroin in the same stores that they plan to sell marijuana in and how would this possible benefit society as a whole ?


Not on your life.

The idea is not to legalize all drugs, but to decriminalize drugs to prevent criminal records and the such. The idea is that we could utilize better the funds we put towards incarceration/policing into health related initiatives.

Makes sense no?
Bugs





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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well ... that's the window-dressing ... they said a lot of things about this. At the start, this was aimed at a kind of marijuana temperance policy. Now they're talkkng abput marijuana lounges.

They are trying to cartelize a trade that was previously a crime and squeeze as much revenue out of it as tobacco and alcohol.

Enforcing a cartel means criminalizing the black market activities, or else the cartelization will fail. So we should expect there to be offences that get free-market marijuana suppliers out of the market.
RCO





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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toronto Centre wrote:
RCO wrote:

in 5 to 10 years down the road , is the government going to be legally selling cocaine and heroin in the same stores that they plan to sell marijuana in and how would this possible benefit society as a whole ?


Not on your life.

The idea is not to legalize all drugs, but to decriminalize drugs to prevent criminal records and the such. The idea is that we could utilize better the funds we put towards incarceration/policing into health related initiatives.

Makes sense no?


the liberal caucus clearly voted and said they want to legalise simple possession of all illicit drugs

does that include drugs like fentanyl and the date rape drug ? are you willing to support decriminalising the date rape drug or drugs that could be used as one ? it would only take a small amount put in someone's drink and they could be sexually assaulted ? is this really what Canadians want from there government ?

why would such a policy possibly be a government priority ? what is society getting from this

most of the major police forces don't even focus any time charging people with simple possession anyways , they might charge someone if they came across a small amount of drugs on them but there certainly not chasing after every minor drug user and charging them
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Liberal caucus proposes to decriminlize illegal drugs

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