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RCO





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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject: poll claims massive support for Urban gun ban Reply with quote

( according to the media Canadians don't want more gun control they want no guns at all in the major cities , what the media didn't mention is its already illegal to own an illegal handgun in Canada and the police already have the tools and laws in place to prosecute those people , to pass another law to make the already illegal illegal doesn't even make sense its just pure crazy . and the people who own legal guns have to pass a course , provide references to the police , get a back ground check and have them stored properly already , its now the wild west out there )



Poll suggests majority of Canadians backs outright ban on guns in urban areas


By Stephanie Levitz — Dec 3 2017

OTTAWA — The vast majority of Canadians favours a total ban on guns in urban areas, a new poll suggests.

According to the poll, conducted by Ekos Research Associates for The Canadian Press, 69 per cent of those surveyed agreed with the statement "I think that there should be a strict ban on guns in urban areas."

Support was highest in Quebec at 76 per cent and lowest in Alberta at 48 per cent.

The federal Liberals are currently at work on legislation to follow through on campaign commitments to tighten up restrictions on guns, though an earlier suggestion a new bill could be introduced before the end of the year now seems unlikely.

The Liberal plans don't involve any kind of total ban and, indeed, no political party has ever suggested the idea, noted Ekos president Frank Graves.

But widespread support for the concept suggests there's room to simply stop tinkering with existing gun laws and put in place something more ambitious, he said.

"I'm not saying the operationalization wouldn't be complex but this isn't a moon shot and it's been done in other jurisdictions," Graves said.

"I think Canadians would settle for something close — it wouldn't have to be a strict ban, but anything to move the needle here."

Guns are not involved in the vast majority of crimes in Canada but there have been increases in gun-related violence.

Statistics released last month showed that 2016 was the first time since 2012 that shootings were the most common method of homicide in Canada. Statistics Canada also reported that 2016 was the third year in a row that the number of firearm-related homicides rose.

The agency also reported last month that 587 people took their own lives with the use of a firearm in 2014, up from 544 the year before.

A standard response to why government doesn't go further to crack down on guns is politics and the perception that urban Canadians view the issue far differently than rural dwellers, who use guns to hunt for food or protect themselves in remote regions beyond the every-day reach of law enforcement.

The political divide has played itself out repeatedly during national debates on gun control. In 2011, two NDP MPs from Thunder Bay, Ont., were disciplined when they broke ranks and voted in favour of the Conservative government's legislation to repeal the gun registry.

During the Conservative leadership race earlier this year, a clear position on firearms-related policy was a must-have for candidates, many of whom actively courted firearms enthusiasts.

But the Ekos survey suggests there's support across the political spectrum for restrictions that are limited to urban areas — 86 per cent of respondents who identified themselves as Liberals, 56 per cent of Conservatives and 75 per cent of New Democrats backed an urban ban.

The automated land line and cell phone survey of 2,287 Canadians was carried out Nov. 10-30 and is considered accurate within 2.1 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.

In 2015, the federal Liberals made several campaign commitments related to firearms. They've fulfilled some, including a revamp of a national advisory board and increased funding to the provinces to address gun violence.

That money was announced last month at an event in Surrey, B.C., where a federal by-election is underway in a community that has a long-standing issue with guns and gangs.

The Liberals also pledged to require enhanced background checks for anyone seeking to buy a gun, and prospective buyers must also show a license. Those who sell guns would, among other things, be required to keep an inventory of stock and sales.

Their platform also promised to get more weapons off the streets by strengthening controls on handguns and assault weapons.

A group that includes family members of women killed at a shooting at the Ecole Polytechnique in Montreal in 1989, as well as survivors of a shooting at Montreal's Dawson College in 2006 and one at a mosque in Quebec City last year gathered on Parliament Hill last week to press the Liberals to commit to a firm timeline for the changes.

Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale said work is underway on related legislation.

"It is an important topic and efforts in the past in dealing with a topic that has the potential to, in some places, be controversial has ended up foundering," he said.

"When I put forward the legislative package I want to make sure that it's a package that will succeed. That's my objective and we'll get it done."

People whose lives have been changed directly by gun violence say they've been waiting too long.

Stephanie Levitz, The Canadian Press

https://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2017/12/03/poll-suggests-majority-of-canadians-backs-outright-ban-on-guns-in-urban-areas-2/#.WiRgUkn2Zjp
RCO





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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this article and story appears to have been widely distributed to the Canadian media even though it was an especially biased attack on Canada's legal gun owners .


first off whats not mentioned in the articles is that its very rare for a legally owned and registered hand gun to be involved in a criminal incident . no one seems to have the exact stats as to how many legal gun owners there is in Toronto or what % of those guns are involved in a crime each year but I would highly suspect its extremely low when compared to the much larger amount of illegal guns that have been smuggled across the border and sold to criminals
( so even if you were to remove the legal guns from the 416 area its unlikely to have an impact on the existing criminal elements operating )


there has also never been residency requirements when applying for a firearms licence in Canada . its never been based on if you live in a rural area or an urban area . I've seen the forms before and its not a factor police consider when issuing a licence . they look into there criminal record , check references , believe a person's spouse has to also sign the application and they must pass a firearms safety course

someone who lives in a rural area and simply wanted a gun to go hunting could still be denied a license if they had a past assault conviction or could not provide the proper references as an example
Bugs





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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is also evidence that where people are allowed to carry concealed guns, people are politer to each other. It's not that everyone has a gun because they don't. It's just that the possibility seems to improve peoples public behaviour.

It also reduces whole categories of crime. In Canada, for instance, breaking into houses is a common crime. In Florida, I am told, there's very few of what the police call "break and enter" crimes. Why? Because every tenth house a robber robs has an owner in it, very likely with a gun, and he is legally entitled to shoot the robber dead.

I don't say this is for Canada. There are a reported 300 million guns in America, and as a practical matter, that makes banning them impossible. In Canada, the guns we do have are in the hands of pretty responsible people who know how to handle the tool.

The gun killings that are worrisome are associated with the drug trade and gangs. And those guys aren't going to use licensed weapons, at least not weapons licensed to them, no matter what we do. I get the idea that disarming would stop some violence from happening, but that just makes it more attractive for the bad boys to have guns. That's the dilemma.

Even if you have a handgun, it's illegal to walk around with it. I think you need a special permit to take it back and forth to a firing range.
RCO





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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
There is also evidence that where people are allowed to carry concealed guns, people are politer to each other. It's not that everyone has a gun because they don't. It's just that the possibility seems to improve peoples public behaviour.

It also reduces whole categories of crime. In Canada, for instance, breaking into houses is a common crime. In Florida, I am told, there's very few of what the police call "break and enter" crimes. Why? Because every tenth house a robber robs has an owner in it, very likely with a gun, and he is legally entitled to shoot the robber dead.

I don't say this is for Canada. There are a reported 300 million guns in America, and as a practical matter, that makes banning them impossible. In Canada, the guns we do have are in the hands of pretty responsible people who know how to handle the tool.

The gun killings that are worrisome are associated with the drug trade and gangs. And those guys aren't going to use licensed weapons, at least not weapons licensed to them, no matter what we do. I get the idea that disarming would stop some violence from happening, but that just makes it more attractive for the bad boys to have guns. That's the dilemma.

Even if you have a handgun, it's illegal to walk around with it. I think you need a special permit to take it back and forth to a firing range.



I can understand why there is concern in places like the "golden horsehose " around Toronto about gun crime but if you looked thru the various shooting incidents that happened there I doubt you'd find many where a " licensed gun owner " used a legal firearm

they'd all originate from people who don't have licenses and often already have criminal records and in many cases even prohibition orders saying there not allowed to own any weapons , the guns there using are virtually all smuggled across the border from the US or in some cases stolen from legal gun owners but the vast majority originate from the US
( and if these guns are already illegal ? what affect would a ban have on them ? if they were already illegal today and police cannot prevent the criminals from getting a gun ? I have a hard time wrapping my mind around that one )

I have a really hard time understanding how banning the legal gun owners from owning guns in major cities would have any effect on gun crime in them ? as there not the people responsible for the shootings currently

any law that doesn't target criminals is unlikely to have any affect on the crime rate in my view
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RCO wrote:

I can understand why there is concern in places like the "golden horsehose " around Toronto about gun crime but if you looked thru the various shooting incidents that happened there I doubt you'd find many where a " licensed gun owner " used a legal firearm


This is a point that gets lost far to often;
Very rarely do we see incidences where the legal owner of a firearm commits a crime with that firearm.

Gun violence in particular and specifically gang violence in the major cities are almost always weapons reported stolen from the US and illegally brought north or Chinese replicas that are illegally brought in via the major port cities.

We don't have an issue with legal gun ownership in Canada, we have a border problem that leads to the problem that Urban Canadians are concerned about.

If the goal was really to reduce gun violence the most effective way of doing so would be investing more money into the CBSA so they have the resource to intercept more than they can with their current resources.
RCO





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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cosmostein wrote:
RCO wrote:

I can understand why there is concern in places like the "golden horsehose " around Toronto about gun crime but if you looked thru the various shooting incidents that happened there I doubt you'd find many where a " licensed gun owner " used a legal firearm


This is a point that gets lost far to often;
Very rarely do we see incidences where the legal owner of a firearm commits a crime with that firearm.

Gun violence in particular and specifically gang violence in the major cities are almost always weapons reported stolen from the US and illegally brought north or Chinese replicas that are illegally brought in via the major port cities.

We don't have an issue with legal gun ownership in Canada, we have a border problem that leads to the problem that Urban Canadians are concerned about.

If the goal was really to reduce gun violence the most effective way of doing so would be investing more money into the CBSA so they have the resource to intercept more than they can with their current resources.


anyways my issue with the original article /poll was this it was pushed by the Canadian press in a way that was intended to advance a very anti firearms position as a solution to a problem that involves illegal guns not legal guns

its not clear if they polled other options than an all out ban on all firearms in major cities ?
it would of been interesting to see what Canadians though about tougher sentences for people who actually use guns in an illegal manner ? something the conservatives tired to do pre 2015 but courts would often block or strike down

or more enforcement at the US border where most of the guns are actually coming
from ?

or if they though the current licencing system was working , is non-restricted , restricted and prohibited licences

or if they though stronger background checks were needed ? something talked about a lot in the US , although already done here when someone applies for a firearms license

but the media only appears to have polled the most radical option on the table instead of polling a wider variety of possible solutions to the problem
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cosmostein wrote:

This is a point that gets lost far to often;

In my estimation, the point you make is one thats ignored when crafting these laws.
Quote:

Very rarely do we see incidences where the legal owner of a firearm commits a crime with that firearm.

Careful there. That seems to be changing somewhat .

In some estimations , half of all guns siezed here are smuggled in, the other half sold off from legal gun owners. (It would appear far too many legal gun owners succumb to the instant profit on a sale. You and I can buy a $700 gun and turn it around tomorrow morning and get $2500 for it.-Not a bad gig! )
http://guncontrol.ca/wp-conten.....llegal.pdf
Quote:

Gun violence in particular and specifically gang violence in the major cities are almost always weapons reported stolen from the US and illegally brought north or Chinese replicas that are illegally brought in via the major port cities.

Seems to be abit less than 60/40 split , import/domestic.
And with this guy...we have a problem.
"Jovanovic, who had a clean record, walked into the same west-end gun shop with his Possession and Acquisition Licence three times in May and June of 2014 and bought nine handguns.

He sold all nine guns and one he already owned to various “ne’er-do-wells,” his lawyer said in his final submissions."
http://torontosun.com/2016/06/.....5e3a81feb3

Quote:

If the goal was really to reduce gun violence the most effective way of doing so would be investing more money into the CBSA so they have the resource to intercept more than they can with their current resources.

Agreed.

The USA will not change until someone stands up, catches the eye of the populous and convinces them that a " culture change" is the only thing that is going to work on reducing gun crime.

More laws never work, more restrictions never work (not to mention they rarely enforce) .

Change the culture , change the results. For the record I am not anti-gun. For too long I used to be, but realized that laws rarely make change for cultural issues. Guns are a part of the American collective. I do not think Canadians have it in their collective in any way approaching the US .

Last gun I ever fired was a .22 at a bird and damn if I didnt kill it. Thouhgt....ok that was stupid, the bird was just being a bird and didnt have to die.
Never shot another gun again. (but would at a range)

Quote:
RCO : but if you looked thru the various shooting incidents that happened there I doubt you'd find many where a " licensed gun owner " used a legal firearm

Click the link I posted above. While not 'many' , there are more than a few and it is a serious problem.
RCO





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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toronto Centre wrote:
cosmostein wrote:

This is a point that gets lost far to often;

In my estimation, the point you make is one thats ignored when crafting these laws.
Quote:

Very rarely do we see incidences where the legal owner of a firearm commits a crime with that firearm.

Careful there. That seems to be changing somewhat .

In some estimations , half of all guns siezed here are smuggled in, the other half sold off from legal gun owners. (It would appear far too many legal gun owners succumb to the instant profit on a sale. You and I can buy a $700 gun and turn it around tomorrow morning and get $2500 for it.-Not a bad gig! )
http://guncontrol.ca/wp-conten.....llegal.pdf
Quote:

Gun violence in particular and specifically gang violence in the major cities are almost always weapons reported stolen from the US and illegally brought north or Chinese replicas that are illegally brought in via the major port cities.

Seems to be abit less than 60/40 split , import/domestic.
And with this guy...we have a problem.
"Jovanovic, who had a clean record, walked into the same west-end gun shop with his Possession and Acquisition Licence three times in May and June of 2014 and bought nine handguns.

He sold all nine guns and one he already owned to various “ne’er-do-wells,” his lawyer said in his final submissions."
http://torontosun.com/2016/06/.....5e3a81feb3

Quote:

If the goal was really to reduce gun violence the most effective way of doing so would be investing more money into the CBSA so they have the resource to intercept more than they can with their current resources.

Agreed.

The USA will not change until someone stands up, catches the eye of the populous and convinces them that a " culture change" is the only thing that is going to work on reducing gun crime.

More laws never work, more restrictions never work (not to mention they rarely enforce) .

Change the culture , change the results. For the record I am not anti-gun. For too long I used to be, but realized that laws rarely make change for cultural issues. Guns are a part of the American collective. I do not think Canadians have it in their collective in any way approaching the US .

Last gun I ever fired was a .22 at a bird and damn if I didnt kill it. Thouhgt....ok that was stupid, the bird was just being a bird and didnt have to die.
Never shot another gun again. (but would at a range)

Quote:
RCO : but if you looked thru the various shooting incidents that happened there I doubt you'd find many where a " licensed gun owner " used a legal firearm

Click the link I posted above. While not 'many' , there are more than a few and it is a serious problem.



ok your claiming legal gun owners are willing to risk going to jail to make a quick buck ? sort of like selling some used junk on Kiijjii ?

but in reality the police treat gun crimes very seriously , these legal gun owners know if they get caught they'd likely go to jail and would certainly see there firearms license cancelled so they wouldn't be able to own any guns at all .

I'm not saying the example you provided isn't real or this has never happened at all but I'd really have my doubts its a common occurance . most legal gun owners are older family men with jobs and most would never put themselves in such a dangerous situation ( where they could potentially get hurt by the people there selling the guns to and possible jail sentence ) . anyone caught trafficking firearms would almost certainly be faced with a jail sentence of at least a few years

anyways its up to the police to enforce the existing gun laws , the media came out with the idea we need an all out ban around a week ago but has yet to provide anything to back this up ?
they've yet to explain how such a plan would target criminals ? or how illegal guns that are already illegal now would be treated any differently if they were banned from the city ?
the police can already arrest and charge someone in possession of an illegal gun as things stand now , they don't need a new law to do this
Bugs





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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TC never fails to amuse me. The latest little bon-bon ...

Quote:
In some estimations , half of all guns siezed here are smuggled in, the other half sold off from legal gun owners. (It would appear far too many legal gun owners succumb to the instant profit on a sale. You and I can buy a $700 gun and turn it around tomorrow morning and get $2500 for it.-Not a bad gig! )


I have no actual idea of how hard it is to get a permit to buy and own a hand gun in Toronto, or any other big city in Canada, but it's hard. You get the idea that it's a two-year wait and a big pain-in-the-ass.

So you go through all of that, and now you have to sell that gun to some guy who will pay $2500 for it. So which street corner does TC go to when he wants to cash in? I am thinking of him sitting in the food court at a mall at Jane and Wilson, perhaps? With a Glock in his pocket. Still in the wrapper.

He hears ... psst ... you OK? This is an opportunity. What does he say?

He decides to wave the kid over. "Naw, I don't want that shit ... but if you know anybody who wants a Glock nine, I've got one." The kid licks his lips.

I mean, this story almost writes itself.

And then he has to report the theft. That should be an interesting interview. It probably involves providing evidence of an actual theft, and that he was in compliance with everything that would make the anti-gun crowd feel safe, in terms of gun storage.

But it's not over yet. To get back to zero, he has to replace that handgun. Repeat business is the key, of course. There is, no doubt, paperwork.

Yeah, this is looking like an real easy gig.

You have to admit, that TC sure has an eye for an easy dollar.
RCO





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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
TC never fails to amuse me. The latest little bon-bon ...

Quote:
In some estimations , half of all guns siezed here are smuggled in, the other half sold off from legal gun owners. (It would appear far too many legal gun owners succumb to the instant profit on a sale. You and I can buy a $700 gun and turn it around tomorrow morning and get $2500 for it.-Not a bad gig! )


I have no actual idea of how hard it is to get a permit to buy and own a hand gun in Toronto, or any other big city in Canada, but it's hard. You get the idea that it's a two-year wait and a big pain-in-the-ass.

So you go through all of that, and now you have to sell that gun to some guy who will pay $2500 for it. So which street corner does TC go to when he wants to cash in? I am thinking of him sitting in the food court at a mall at Jane and Wilson, perhaps? With a Glock in his pocket. Still in the wrapper.

He hears ... psst ... you OK? This is an opportunity. What does he say?

He decides to wave the kid over. "Naw, I don't want that shit ... but if you know anybody who wants a Glock nine, I've got one." The kid licks his lips.

I mean, this story almost writes itself.

And then he has to report the theft. That should be an interesting interview. It probably involves providing evidence of an actual theft, and that he was in compliance with everything that would make the anti-gun crowd feel safe, in terms of gun storage.

But it's not over yet. To get back to zero, he has to replace that handgun. Repeat business is the key, of course. There is, no doubt, paperwork.

Yeah, this is looking like an real easy gig.

You have to admit, that TC sure has an eye for an easy dollar.




from what I know in Canada there is 3 classes of firearms licenses

- non - restricted , restricted and prohibited

non restricted is basically for your typical hunting rifles , shot guns etc . but you can't just walk into a gun shop and get this license .
you'd still have to take the firearms safety course and pass it , provide at least 2 references , get spousal signature if married , pay a fee and wait a long time to hear back ( it be the most common firearms license held by most hunters and rural people )

restricted is similar , is a firearms safety course , references and spousal signature . but you need a reason to get such a license .

what I see online there is only a couple allowed reasons ,
- member of a target shooting club , needs a gun for practice
- collector ( must provide proof and consent to occasional searches )
- employment ( police , security guard etc )
- protection of life is also listed but this is rarely given out in Canada
- hunting is not an allowable reason as its illegal to use a hand gun to hunt in Canada at least in most places from what I know

( but basically it be fairly difficult to get and you'd need a clean criminal record etc , the idea that someone is going to jump thru all these hoops and then turn around and sell a legal hand gun to some sort of gangster is rather crazy , just to make a few quick bucks and then likely get put into jail down the road when your caught by the police )

is also a prohibited license but I don't think you can even apply to get one of those , believe only a few hundred exist and they expire once the holder passes away


http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-.....tr-eng.htm
Bugs





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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My bet is that handguns automatically require a 'restricted' license. They don't make it easy.

We already have enough gun control. We are way past the point where -- because there's a gun handy -- an argument becomes a murder. That's not a threat. The guns that give the police a problem are owned by gang-members settling scores.

It is time for the focus to be on 'the shooters. And for the subject to be realistic. And you know what 'realistic' means.
RCO





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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

( this article illustrates part of the problem in cities like Toronto , the police are unable to solve many gun murders and that task is getting more difficult with less officers and less front line intelligence , so even if they were to ban guns in Toronto , what good would it do if the police are unable to even solve the crimes to begin with ? )


Blood runs cold: Toronto Police homicide clearance rate plummets

Brad Hunter


Published:
December 10, 2017


Updated:
December 10, 2017 5:30 PM EST


Filed Under:

Toronto SUN ›
News ›
Toronto & GTA ›


Blood runs cold: Toronto Police homicide clearance rate plummets

​​

Toronto Police tape.The Canadian Press



Anthony Earl Smith is the first entry on an inglorious list.

The 41-year-old was shot to death on Jan. 8, around 7:45 a.m. on a Sunday, around Queen and Seaton Sts.

Smith was — quite literally — number one with a bullet. The city’s first homicide of 2017.

The murder remains unsolved.

During the past five years, the clearance rate for homicides in the city has plunged to an alarming 40%.


Anthony Earl Smith, 41, was the city’s first murder victim of the year. His case is unsolved.


For murders involving guns, the solve rate hovers under 10%, sources told the Toronto Sun.

“It’s significant — 40% is the worst in years,” Toronto Police Association President Mike McCormick told the Sun. “It’s not the investigators, they’re among the best in the business.”

In 2015, the clearance rate was a respectable 64%. In addition, in 2012, Toronto cops made 58,000 arrests.

In 2016? Just 29,000.

McCormick said the crisis is exacerbated by significant cuts in the number of cops on the street — a drop in 600 officers in the last five years — who frequently gathered bits of intelligence organically that solved cases.

He underplayed the effects of carding on the drop in cleared murders.

“It’s not so much carding but rather the fact that pro-active policing is no longer existent,” McCormick said.

Tess Richey, 22, vanished Saturday, Nov. 25, 2017, after a night out at a bar in the Village with a friend and was found dead at an abandoned building near Church and Wellesley Sts. four days later. Her homicide has not been solved.

According to the TPA, the model for policing in the city is broken and makes for grim reading:

Not enough boots on the ground to engage proactively with the community and gather intelligence;


Officers more reactive than proactive — they are running from call to call, trying to clear the outstanding emergency calls;


Enforcement stats down across the board;


Other duties mean less time for officers to protect the community and engage with citizens;


Many divisions struggle to fill even half of their patrol cars at the start of the shift.


Detectives are telling TPS that there has been a noticeable loss of intelligence due to a lack of proactive policing.


“It’s just gone, nothing but call to call,” McCormick said of the crisis. “In the past, a lot of that intelligence was gathered by frontline cops. That’s now having an impact on solving crimes.”

The union chief said solving gun-related homicides has always been tough, but that task is now thankless and nearly impossible.

“And it’s the brazenness … a lot of these murders are happening in public places,” he said. “Downtown, they look at these murders and think it’s a blip. Tell that to the lady running for her life while the bullets are flying at Sheridan Mall in the middle of the afternoon.”

McCormick added that all murders aren’t considered equal in the eyes of politicians.

“The bottom line is that we’re down officers and the ones we have are being pushed to the limit,” McCormick said.

“When you’re continually putting out fires, it doesn’t give you a chance to get ahead of the game. And that’s what’s happening.”

Tess Richey, 23, and Malique Ellis, 21, are homicides number 56 and 57, respectively, the most recent additions to a roster of heartache.

So far, both slayings are unsolved.





HOMICIDE CLEARANCE RATE

2014: 58%

2015: 64%

2016: 55%

2017 SO FAR: 40%



STAFFING

Current Uniform strength: 4,978 (with Senior Officers, Chief and Deputies total increases to 5,038)


TPS departures as of Dec. 5: 373 officers


149 resignations from uniform and civilian members combined — 62 of those joined other Police Services


Of the 373 total members who have departed or have given notice they will depart the Service in 2017 (this number includes retirements and the senior officers), 229 are from the uniformed group.


— STATISTICS: Toronto Police Association

http://torontosun.com/news/loc.....e-plummets
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toronto Centre wrote:

Careful there. That seems to be changing somewhat

In some estimations , half of all guns seized here are smuggled in, the other half sold off from legal gun owners. (It would appear far too many legal gun owners succumb to the instant profit on a sale. You and I can buy a $700 gun and turn it around tomorrow morning and get $2500 for it.-Not a bad gig! )
http://guncontrol.ca/wp-conten.....llegal.pdf


A fair point for discussion;
However your source in some respects is using information that is about 10 years old (still apt just older) but to borrow from the source:

Quote:
Of the 327 handguns recovered in crime by the Toronto Police Service in 2006, 181 were traceable to their original point of sale, and of those, 120 (two thirds) were traced to the United States. The study concluded that the US was a significant source of crime guns.

The Ontario Firearms Tracing and Enforcement Program traced 705 crime guns in 2007, 490 (69%) of which were traced back to the United States, and 10.5% were traced to a Canadian source.


That also seems to match more recent information cited here (2016):

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/three-theories-for-the-cause-of-torontos-gun-homicide-spike/article30114135/

Quote:
More than two-thirds of guns used in crimes in Canada can be traced back to the United States. The demand for guns among organized crime in Canada means that smuggled guns can fetch 10 times their U.S. value and can be easily shipped across the border, explained Christian Leuprecht, a Queen's University and Royal Military College political science professor who studies gun-smuggling networks.


The article echos your point about how much more money you can make selling a weapon in Canada that is purchase legally but cites American owners as the beneficiary. Which takes us to the other third of guns used that I would imagine are when we get into Chinese imports, weapons with serial numbers filed, and then the domestically purchased weapons.

While I would concede its possible we have a growing domestic issue, I would still argue it pales in comparison to the greater overall problem of guns coming from abroad.

In terms of present day issues (as present day as we can get 2016 info) it appears around 10% of weapons seized recently have ever been registered in Canada legally.

Toronto Centre wrote:
Seems to be abit less than 60/40 split , import/domestic.
And with this guy...we have a problem.
"Jovanovic, who had a clean record, walked into the same west-end gun shop with his Possession and Acquisition Licence three times in May and June of 2014 and bought nine handguns.

He sold all nine guns and one he already owned to various “ne’er-do-wells,” his lawyer said in his final submissions."
http://torontosun.com/2016/06/.....5e3a81feb3


The cited situation is certainly alarming, but I am not confident that situations like these represent the majority of weapons being used in violent crimes.

While I would agree that one is too many, designing legislation to intercept (In your opinion 40%, in my opinion 10%) of the problem isn't addressing the problem as effectively as we could be.

While we may disagree on the split of how many weapons come from abroad I think we are generally on the same page that the majority are from abroad.

If the goal is to reduce accessibility of weapons amongst folks who shouldn't have them border enforcement is the most effective way of doing so as you are targeting the majority of the problem.

It doesn't appear that the % of guns coming from abroad has changed significantly between the 2006 cited source and the 2016 source, while this may be a growing concern its seemingly not appearing to be displacing the conventional source of illegal firearms (at least not yet)

Toronto Centre wrote:
Agreed.

The USA will not change until someone stands up, catches the eye of the populous and convinces them that a " culture change" is the only thing that is going to work on reducing gun crime.

More laws never work, more restrictions never work (not to mention they rarely enforce).


My opinion either way on the ownership allowances of weapons in the US is largely moot.

They have access to guns much easier than we do as a result it makes for an easy location for people in Canada who shouldn't have a weapon to get access to a weapon.

Its a problem that exists that will continue to exist unless its address by Canada domestically.

At its core, very rarely do Canadian Governments pass legislation pertaining to firearms which truly target the primary source of weapons utilized in gun violence. Largely this is the point I was making above.

If we truly want to crack down on gun violence, go after the source which is imports which I believe you and I are on the same page about?
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