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Toronto Centre





Joined: 12 Feb 2011
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Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
As far as I know, these are unsourced allegations made by women whose identity is being protected, and who would not have come forward on their own. We don't even know when this happened. It feels like it was a long time ago.

They have been sourced and in most cases verified.
The timeline has been laid out for you in numerous links and posts.
Quote:

Is there anything that can be fact-checked that is conclusive?

How much credibility do they have? We have a right to know because there is no evidence here. There are two allegations, at best, and no evidence. One story is not evidence for the other case.

Credibility/evidence is not the issue.

Patrick Brown's staff resigned at 10-10:30PM, Patrick Brown resigned in a hurry , at 1:30AM no less (VERY telling), he ran to a waiting car and nada since.

His actions, his staff's actions speak volumes.
Quote:

But in the end -- and this is why resigning is wrong -- by resigning, Brown has symbolically paid the price. It doesn't matter if he's not guilty -- he's gone. The public will think he's guilty.

Stupid. stupid, stupid ...

Think deeper . You are far too shallow to conjure this up.

He will pay the price because he resigned 'cuz he and his staff know these are true.

Hell, its reported his staff and others have said... "Brown denies the allegations, but many party members say his alleged mistreatment of women was an open secret. "

Resign ? Smart, Smart, Smart.

If one is being framed, or hoodwinked then you stay and fight the fight . If there were not a shred of evidence here ,no faces with details, then you knuckle down and fight.

But if you roll over , split during the night after a problematic late call for a presser , are virtually crying and choking from tears well then, you not only appear guilty but everything suggests you are.

In this case, from his actions, he is . Criminally ? Not that I see, but there is no need to be criminal about this. If you are/were a boor towards women then prepare thy angus to be peppered .
RCO





Joined: 02 Mar 2009
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votes: 3
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toronto Centre wrote:
RCO wrote:


you can read the articles I posted , CTV is openly admitting they had to find these women and encouraged them to come forward and that media in Toronto had been looking into this story for some time , it didn't all come together last night suddenly , this was weeks and months in the making , they did a lot of research and searching to put together this story

Let me fix this a bit..."...we knew there were allegations and followed up on those"

Your incredulity is amazing.

To think CTV or any media outlet made this news is well.... There were whispers at QP. They followed and voila !
Patrick is caught with his pants down . Pun intended.
Quote:

maybe its just me but I've been to a lot of bars and restaurants over the years and allegation # 1 just doesn't sound right . she can't provide any reason for why she'd even be connected to brown in any way other than a claim she meet him in a bar , when she wasn't even old enough to be in a bar .

What part troubles you ?
An underage girl(s) (18 so easy to think 19) in a bar?
An underage girl(s) getting hit on by some sleezeball older guy ?
An unmarried pretty well known (for Barrie anyway) Politician for the area. CTV Barrie only has hi photo up on screen once or twice a week.

Her Daddy confirmed the story too.
Quote:

and then provides a story that reads like a scene out of a bad sit com , meeting him randomly in a bar , going home with him ( even though she didn't even know him ? ) why would any attractive 18 year old go home with a 30 plus year old man from a bar they didn't even know before the night started ? and then supposedly perform a sex act on him .

18 yr old in the prsence of greatness ! Who wouldnt !

Come on, dumb kids can do things we just dont understand all the time.
Quote:

I don't believe it for 1 second and anyone who does is not looking at the facts , if she provides some evidence i'll change my mind but 10 years after the fact I doubt highly any exists

You can hide your head in the sand . But you cannot opine this stupidly when the actions of the accused ....re-read that again, the actions of the accused were to ...
1) call a presser at 1AM- Red flag, dont wanna face the hordes in the morning
2) says what he had to say and then ran into a wating car.
3) resigned and so did his staff.

Those actions say yes, what I am being accused of have some merit.

Quote:

but the number 1 reason I don't believe it , cause I've meet Patrick and there is no way a sober Patrick Brown has enough game or player in him to pick up an 18 year old at a club and take her home all in one night , just no way


This is the guy who made it his life work to hob knob with celebrities, hockey players and hangers on who could help.

Dopnt forget, Gretzky , Hawerchuk et al endorsed him and he threw a tourney featuring famous folk so he could hob knob.

Maybe he showed these women the photos of his famous " friends" and they thought he was cool.

I dunno....but there is definitely substance to this.



I don't believe anyone has confirmed the first allegation , think your referring to the second girl who was a staffer and told her parents about being at brown's house .

the first allegation involving the 18 year old has not been confirmed by anyone , no eye witnesses , no roommates , bar staff or people at the bar that night . from what I've read all there is , is the allegation from an anonymous now 29 year old woman

ctv claims they verified the story but you have to wonder how ? there was never a police report filed , no eye witnesses and we don't even know what bar this supposedly happened in 10 long years ago , evidence is so thin its hard to believe it got this far and were suppose to believe it really happened

the timeline also makes it seem more doubtful , 10 years ago would mean it supposedly happened around 2007 or 2008 , are we really to believe the then mp went to a bar in his home riding months before the 2008 election and picked up an 18 year old in front of the entire bar likely filled with 19 year olds , took her home and no one saw this event ? do you really think any sitting mp would be this dumb ? even a bunch of drunk 19 year olds would remember if there mp came out to the bar and picked up someone in front of them , he was very well known in barrie



its no doubt brown used his position to meet famous people , he ran a hockey tournament that raised thousands for the local hospital and even that fact was not relevant . it doesn't matter how nice of a guy you are or how many millions you raised for charity
the message is if your accused of sexual harassment your life is over , the feminists win and get to destroy your life
RCO





Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 7250
Reputation: 252.7
votes: 3
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
As far as I know, these are unsourced allegations made by women whose identity is being protected, and who would not have come forward on their own. We don't even know when this happened. It feels like it was a long time ago.

Is there anything that can be fact-checked that is conclusive?

How much credibility do they have? We have a right to know because there is no evidence here. There are two allegations, at best, and no evidence. One story is not evidence for the other case.

But in the end -- and this is why resigning is wrong -- by resigning, Brown has symbolically paid the price. It doesn't matter if he's not guilty -- he's gone. The public will think he's guilty.

Stupid. stupid, stupid ...



I just find the whole situation weird , for the last 2 years Brown was everywhere and attended hundreds of events yet he couldn't get a minute of press on tv , but these same press who ignored his legitimate events were plotting and finding alleged victims for this story , they don't cover the real news at queens park yet they have time to bring down the opposition leader over an alleged sex scandal


the last 2 years , the storyline has been Brown was an unknown leader , but now the ballots have been taken out of our hands and well never get to decide if he should be premier or not .

disqualied for the job cause he went out to a bar and bought some younger women a few drinks ? maybe even tried to hit on the one who already had a bf , she told him to stop and he did , she even kept working in his office .

it all sounds like something any man in his 30's could of done , whats unusually about being attracted to a younger women ? or buying someone a drink in a bar or for a younger person to try and hook up with someone at a party . none of it really sounds that odd , its hard to believe this is what DQ him from the job and the reason the media thinks wynne should be premier forever


no one is even alleging he's done anything inapproiate to any women during his time as Ontario pc leader , if these events had happened more recently maybe I'd be more understanding
RCO





Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 7250
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votes: 3
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick Brown’s downfall an affront to fairness

Patrick Brown is a man ruined, on the word of two anonymous complainants whose allegations have been accepted as facts, writes Rosie DiManno.


Former PC leader Patrick Brown denies the allegations against him.
)


By Rosie DiManno Star Columnist

8:27 PM, Thu., Jan. 25, 2018


It’s not a magnifying glass. It’s an ice pick.

The sweeping arc and thrust of sexual misconduct allegations, untested and unchallenged. Uncharged, need one add. Which apparently doesn’t matter a fig in these caustic accusatory times.

Throw in an “alleged” here and there — the media’s doing, not the politicians who rushed to the podium on Thursday — and, hey, all fine. Let’s move on to the instant repudiation, the character evisceration, the career annihilation.

Another brick in the wall for women’s empowerment? Another brick through the window of basic fairness, I’d say, and the fundamental principle of innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Patrick Brown isn’t Harvey Weinstein or Louis C.K. Shockwaves emanating from Queen’s Park strongly suggest an entire community that had not heard even whispers about inappropriate sexual behaviour in the now ex-leader of the provincial Conservative party’s past. The slag came out of nowhere, about a man who’s been in the public eye for nearly two decades.



To be perfectly hard-boiled about this: where is the sexual misconduct, exactly?



Because what I’m seeing is sexual malice. Or political malice if the stunning downfall of Brown, who seemed on the verge of becoming Ontario’s next premier, has been manipulated by masters of dark political arts — a conspiracy theory loudly promoted on social media, for what’s that worth. I don’t give it much worth, actually, in the absence of any evidence — a concept, evidence, which has been woefully denigrated by the Uzi #MeToo movement splatter. But the timing, five months before a provincial election, is suspicious, arising from allegations that stretch back a decade.

I don’t know Patrick Brown. I don’t know if he’s a wolf. I don’t know if he’s a man of dubious or admirable repute. And I am most emphatically not a Conservative. Although if I were a Tory, I’d hope to have bigger balls than anything that’s been demonstrated over the past 36 hours.

Brown is a man ruined, on the word of two anonymous complainants whose allegations have been accepted as prima facie facts, their assertions bathed in the glow of authenticity and virtue.

It is not brave to speak from the shadows. It is not courageous to vilify anybody from within bubble-wrapped camouflage. Alleged victims of sexual crime are never identified in court unless they explicitly seek to make their names public. But we’re not in the courts, only the court of public opinion and I’m not sure how that can be accurately measured when the breaking news is barely one step ahead of the mushroom cloud fallout.

There is arguably no crime here, even if every word, every detail, is accepted as unvarnished truth.

These stories, as delivered to CTV and broadcast Wednesday evening — a short time after an ashen, dishevelled Brown appeared at a hastily arranged news conference and a couple of hours before he resigned as leader of the Conservative party, via a middle-of-the-night statement — do not remotely rise to the level of criminality.

The accusations may be investigated by police. The head of Toronto’s sexual assault unit did not return my call Thursday. Instead, spokesperson Meaghan Gray said in an email: “We can’t make that determination based on reports in the media. If anyone makes a complaint we would investigate and charge, if appropriate. If they don’t want to report the incident to police they can seek support from one of the many organizations in the community.”

It’s hard to see what there is to criminally investigate: no alleged violence, no coercion, no intimidation, no exploitation and only the flimsiest hypothesis of sexual harassment, more so, if by a hair, with the complainant who worked in Brown’s office when he was a federal Conservative MP. Only way this ever comes before a judge is if Brown sues for defamation.

This is the part where we insert Brown’s firm denial: “First I want to say these allegations are false. Categorically untrue. Every one of them. I will defend myself as hard as I can, with all means at my disposal. It’s never OK. It’s never OK for anybody — for anyone — to feel they have been a victim of sexual harassment, or feel threatened in anyway. Let me make this clear: a safe and respectful society is what we expect and deserve.”

I’m diffident about what is deserved here. Everyone is entitled to believe what they wish, precisely because we are not in a courtroom. But I’ve always cleaved to the healthily agnostic in he-said-she-said — or he-said-she-said-she-said — scenarios. That equation doesn’t change when the allegations are sexual in nature.

Or, as NDP Leader Andrea Horwath snapped Thursday, when a reporter almost apologetically raised, you know, that presumption of innocence thing: “I really have two words — Jian Ghomeshi.”

Here’s two other words: “Not guilty.”

And if Horwath followed the trial, which I presume she did, she would know why the prosecution of the creepy CBC star fell apart: the complainants were not credible; at least two of them seemingly colluded before testifying; all three withheld from police crucial information about their relationships with the defendant. The case should never have come to court.

“The justice system is failing women,” continued Horwath. “It really is. And that’s the reality. Let’s not pretend we have a justice system that’s actually protecting women and making sure that women see justice.”

At it’s worse — and I’ve seen it at worst — that’s sometimes true. Defence lawyers can fillet complainants on the stand, depending on how far a judge will allow cross examination to go. But, at heart, the law does not draw gender distinctions. Male and female complainants are treated equally. That’s what some activists want changed, a hysterical and intolerable demand.

About Brown’s nights of . . . what? Sloppy seduction? Rampant horniness? The inability to read a woman’s mind?

Kisses in one case, dropping trou in the other. Teenagers, both of them.

The first, a high school student in Barrie, met Brown at a bar. Drunk, by her own admission, while no alcohol had crossed teetotaller Brown’s lips. Brown allegedly invited the young woman to his home and offered a tour of the place. Jump then to the bedroom, where Brown did not drag the girl or otherwise bully her into a provocative situation, at least not as described by this complainant in the CTV interview. “He pulled down his pants, said . . . I don’t know if he said ‘suck my d---’ or ‘put this in your mouth,’ but something along those lines.”

Brown allegedly asked for oral sex and she provided it. Then she left.

Show me a male over the age of 16 who hasn’t asked a female (or another male) to “Suck my d---.”

I am not blaming this girl, if this incident occurred. I was 18 once too, more often stupid than prudent. But by her own account, the sexual act was consensual. The legal age for sex in Canada is 16 (as of 2008). Brown did not take her to the bar where she was drinking underage. Not his job to ask her for ID. Single then, as he still is, Brown would have been considerably older. Not a good look, hitting on girls; age-inappropriate bar slumming, yet commonplace. Doubtlessly poor judgment by an individual in the genesis of his political career. Not a crime.

The second complainant was a university student when she first met Brown on a plane, she told CTV. He gave the woman his phone number and allegedly the names of Barrie bars where he might be later that night, offering to help her skip any lineups. She didn’t take him up on the offer but contacted him months later, looking for a summer job, hired to work in his constituency office. At an after-party following a charity event she’d organized, he — and others — plowed her with drinks. She was invited back to his home. Eventually, why gee, there they were, alone, sitting on his bed.

“The next thing I know he’s kissing me. Sitting beside me, kissing me and then I was . . . I kind of just froze up. He continued to kiss me and he laid me down on the bed and got on top of me.’’

She told him to stop.

He did.

He drove her back to her parents’ house.

Again, where is the assault? Where is the intimidation? Where, even, is the harassment? Idiotic, probably, to hit on a staffer. Difficult to tell, from the description, if he manoeuvred the woman into his bedroom. But that’s not a crime either. Not my place to advise anybody on how to get laid.

On the spectrum of predatory sexual behaviour, neither alleged incident, between a man and a woman in the bedroom, moves the needle anywhere towards assault or misconduct. No assault and no abuse, unless we’ve suddenly reverted to the sexual corset of the ’50s.

To declare otherwise is to infantilize women.

We are not children. We are not made of spun sugar. We draw our own boundaries.

If you can’t handle the heat, stay out of the bedroom.

https://www.thestar.com/amp/opinion/star-columnists/2018/01/25/patrick-browns-downfall-an-affront-to-fairness.html
Bugs





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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is how bad our leadership is (I refer to the backroom boys who seem to have made this happen) ... even Rosie DiManno agrees with me!

Quote:
To be perfectly hard-boiled about this: where is the sexual misconduct, exactly?

Because what I’m seeing is sexual malice. Or political malice if the stunning downfall of Brown, who seemed on the verge of becoming Ontario’s next premier, has been manipulated by masters of dark political arts — a conspiracy theory loudly promoted on social media, for what’s that worth. I don’t give it much worth, actually, in the absence of any evidence — a concept, evidence, which has been woefully denigrated by the Uzi #MeToo movement splatter. But the timing, five months before a provincial election, is suspicious, arising from allegations that stretch back a decade.

I don’t know Patrick Brown. I don’t know if he’s a wolf. I don’t know if he’s a man of dubious or admirable repute. And I am most emphatically not a Conservative. Although if I were a Tory, I’d hope to have bigger balls than anything that’s been demonstrated over the past 36 hours.

Brown is a man ruined, on the word of two anonymous complainants whose allegations have been accepted as prima facie facts, their assertions bathed in the glow of authenticity and virtue.


It won't stop until it is stopped.
RCO





Joined: 02 Mar 2009
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Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
This is how bad our leadership is (I refer to the backroom boys who seem to have made this happen) ... even Rosie DiManno agrees with me!

Quote:
To be perfectly hard-boiled about this: where is the sexual misconduct, exactly?

Because what I’m seeing is sexual malice. Or political malice if the stunning downfall of Brown, who seemed on the verge of becoming Ontario’s next premier, has been manipulated by masters of dark political arts — a conspiracy theory loudly promoted on social media, for what’s that worth. I don’t give it much worth, actually, in the absence of any evidence — a concept, evidence, which has been woefully denigrated by the Uzi #MeToo movement splatter. But the timing, five months before a provincial election, is suspicious, arising from allegations that stretch back a decade.

I don’t know Patrick Brown. I don’t know if he’s a wolf. I don’t know if he’s a man of dubious or admirable repute. And I am most emphatically not a Conservative. Although if I were a Tory, I’d hope to have bigger balls than anything that’s been demonstrated over the past 36 hours.

Brown is a man ruined, on the word of two anonymous complainants whose allegations have been accepted as prima facie facts, their assertions bathed in the glow of authenticity and virtue.


It won't stop until it is stopped.



the problem is the standard procedure at most employers when someone is accused of sexual harassment or sexual assault , is to remove that person from the position temporary pending an investigation into the alleged allegations

so I've felt the pc's had no choice but to remove Brown from the position at least temporary pending an investigation . the problem is since he's already resigned , even if the allegations are proven to be false ( entirely made up ) or declared unfounded ( not enough evidence to prove they happened ) he's already paid the price for them being made

the pc's clearly felt brown a rather unknown leader would be too tainted by the allegations even if he was able to have them declared unfounded and the public would be left with personal doubts about him

its also not clear if brown will be allowed to run in June ? or if the pc's are conducting any sort of investigation into the allegations to determine if there is actually any truth to them or not . either they know something we don't about Brown's dating habits or there keeping quiet about there own investigation into the matter
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RCO wrote:


I just find the whole situation weird , for the last 2 years Brown was everywhere and attended hundreds of events yet he couldn't get a minute of press on tv , but these same press who ignored his legitimate events were plotting and finding alleged victims for this story , they don't cover the real news at queens park yet they have time to bring down the opposition leader over an alleged sex scandal

That is so much malarkey it isnt funny.

He gets press all day long if he wants it. He has been quiet I grant you, we know why somewhat I suppose.
But he was also quiet letting the Wynne Govt make all the mistakes they make and allow them to have the headlines , all of them pretty bad. (excpet for the Min wage- most like it)

So this attempt of some new form of fake news is unbecoming .
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