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RCO





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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:12 am    Post subject: why Ontario government employees cost more ? Reply with quote

( an interesting article in the financial post about why Ontario government employees cost so much more than other employees elsewhere in Ontario )


Why Ontario government employees cost so much more than other workers


Charles Lammam and Ben Eisen, Special to Financial Post | February 6, 2017 | Last Updated: Feb 6 5:04 PM ET

More from Special to Financial Post
.

With a projected $4.3-billion deficit this year and relentlessly mounting debt, the Wynne government needs to better control spending to repair the damage to Ontario’s finances. A key area of spending to scrutinize is the wages and benefits of government employees, which are responsible for roughly half of Ontario government pro­gram spending each year.

There’s ample reason to better control compensation costs. While the government must provide competitive compensation to attract qualified employees, the wages and benefits of government employees tend to eclipse those for comparable private-sector positions.

A new Fraser Institute study spotlights the wage premium enjoyed by government employees in Ontario at all levels (federal, provincial and local). Using Statistics Canada data from 2015, the study finds that government employees receive, on average, 13.4-per-cent higher wages than comparable workers in the private sector. This wage premium accounts for differences between individual workers in the two sectors such as age, gender, education, tenure, experience, and type of work.
.
But wages are just one component of total compensation, which includes pensions, early retirement and job security. As any business owner or manager will tell you, it’s the total cost of compensation that matters rather than the individual components. Yet even on various non-wage benefits, the available Statistics Canada data suggests government employees in Ontario come out ahead.

First consider the imbalance on pensions, one of the costliest benefits provided to workers in both sectors. In 2015, eight of 10 government workers in Ontario (79.7 per cent) were covered by a defined-benefit pension plan — which guarantees a level of benefits in retirement — compared to just one of 10 workers in the private sector (11.4 per cent).

Government-sector workers in Ontario also retire, on average, 1.4 years earlier than private-sector workers. Furthermore, they are away from their jobs for personal reasons 60-per-cent more days per year (10.9 days versus 6.8 days in the private sector).


Taking the politics out of the wage-setting process will help level the playing field
.
When it comes to job security, another non-wage benefit, government workers have a distinct advantage. In 2015, 3.2 per cent of private-sector employment in Ontario experienced job loss — six times higher than the 0.5 per cent of government-sector employment.

So what drives this disparity in wages and benefits?

The reason is twofold. In the government sector, political factors largely determine the wage-setting process, while economic realities — productivity concerns, market forces, hard budget constraints — guide the process in the private sector. Moreover, the monopoly environment of the government sector amplifies these differences, compared to the competitive environment of the private sector.

This is more than just a fiscal issue. It’s about fairness, too. Why should government employees receive a premium paid for by private-sector workers who receive less for similar positions?

Taking the politics out of the wage-setting process will help level the playing field between government and private-sector workers. This can be done by enacting measures that link the wages and benefits of government employees to similar positions in the private sector. Doing so would allow all governments (including Ontario’s) to better control spending, rein in debt, and maintain fairness for taxpayers who ultimately foot the bill.

Financial Post

Charles Lammam and Ben Eisen are analysts with the Fraser Institute

http://business.financialpost......er-workers
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without question;
The benefits beyond salary in the public sector eclipses private sector benefits.

Maternity leave as am example, as I recall is fully paid for the entire year for most public sector employees. I don't know many Private Sector companies that can do something like that.
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cosmostein wrote:
Without question;
The benefits beyond salary in the public sector eclipses private sector benefits.

Maternity leave as am example, as I recall is fully paid for the entire year for most public sector employees. I don't know many Private Sector companies that can do something like that.

Pretty sure they are the same for private vs public. Nothing I saw suggested they were treated better.

I do know the women here get 50 weeks off if they want (pregnant of course)
RCO





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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toronto Centre wrote:
cosmostein wrote:
Without question;
The benefits beyond salary in the public sector eclipses private sector benefits.

Maternity leave as am example, as I recall is fully paid for the entire year for most public sector employees. I don't know many Private Sector companies that can do something like that.

Pretty sure they are the same for private vs public. Nothing I saw suggested they were treated better.

I do know the women here get 50 weeks off if they want (pregnant of course)



the public sector has benefits many private jobs have never had or rarely have .

barely any private jobs around here have significant pension plans , extensive health and dental plans are also rare when compared with what a government employee has , they also get many more holidays and sick days

I think maternity leave is legislated by law so the amount is likely the same anywhere
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toronto Centre wrote:
cosmostein wrote:
Without question;
The benefits beyond salary in the public sector eclipses private sector benefits.

Maternity leave as am example, as I recall is fully paid for the entire year for most public sector employees. I don't know many Private Sector companies that can do something like that.

Pretty sure they are the same for private vs public. Nothing I saw suggested they were treated better.

I do know the women here get 50 weeks off if they want (pregnant of course)


Usually not fully paid;

In terms of Public / Private Benefits at least in the Ministries I am familiar with the benefits tend to exceed the private sector in some respects.

As an example, the banks who have better benefits than most in the private sector top up the EI to the employees full wage for 8 weeks and pay out any vacation at full rate then at that point you are using EI for Maternity leave as the law allows.

In the public sector (Ministries of Environment & Transportation as examples) in many cases you receive full top of EI to your full wage for the entire 12 months you are allowed to take under mat leave.

That is a huge difference.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toronto Centre wrote:
cosmostein wrote:
Without question;
The benefits beyond salary in the public sector eclipses private sector benefits.

Maternity leave as am example, as I recall is fully paid for the entire year for most public sector employees. I don't know many Private Sector companies that can do something like that.

Pretty sure they are the same for private vs public. Nothing I saw suggested they were treated better.

I do know the women here get 50 weeks off if they want (pregnant of course)


More nonsense. How much of the private economy offers the standard terms of the Ontario civil service? To make it more objectionable, they hire on the basis of race and gender, and they mostly work on the basis of internal promotion. It sucks to be a white male, unless you are homosexual.

Years ago, when the minimum was was $9 or so, the minimum wage in the Ontario civil service was $14. No doubt it is higher now. Otehrwise, nothing has changed. What surprises me is how easy it is to put their son's futures on the altar, yet another sacrfice to the state.
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive looked for two days and nothing I find says the govt gets to pay X and the private sector says they can pay X-1.

The same rate of pregnancy leave
The same rate for minimum wage (really , who would think it different..LOL!)
The same basic rate for optional/mandatory health benefits.

Now, be careful because Fed vs Prov employees means a difference (mainly on holidays)
The above speak to minimums.

Are/can the public sector sweeten the deal? Yes. They do not have a profit mandate .

The same rates are produced for renewals for public sect and private sector benefit plans. The key difference is the volume basis in the private vs public sector.

What that means is a 10 person company vs a 500 person govt department cannot be compared on a one on one basis. Volume changes everything. All it takes is one person to get really sick and the costs are skewed in the private sector so much that changes may HAVE to be made.
In the public sector that does not play out the same way. Volume baby !

ETA: I cannot apply any of this to pension plans. That is whacked out for Teachers/Unions/OPG...grrrr...
RCO





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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toronto Centre wrote:
Ive looked for two days and nothing I find says the govt gets to pay X and the private sector says they can pay X-1.

The same rate of pregnancy leave
The same rate for minimum wage (really , who would think it different..LOL!)
The same basic rate for optional/mandatory health benefits.

Now, be careful because Fed vs Prov employees means a difference (mainly on holidays)
The above speak to minimums.

Are/can the public sector sweeten the deal? Yes. They do not have a profit mandate .

The same rates are produced for renewals for public sect and private sector benefit plans. The key difference is the volume basis in the private vs public sector.

What that means is a 10 person company vs a 500 person govt department cannot be compared on a one on one basis. Volume changes everything. All it takes is one person to get really sick and the costs are skewed in the private sector so much that changes may HAVE to be made.
In the public sector that does not play out the same way. Volume baby !

ETA: I cannot apply any of this to pension plans. That is whacked out for Teachers/Unions/OPG...grrrr...



but your focused on different benefits that what we meant , I agree that maternity leave is the same everywhere

but lets look at 2 major benefits public school teachers in Ontario have

- pension plans
- dental plans

those 2 benefits are not common if you were to look around at what other employers offer , extensive pension plans are very hard to come by at most employers .
well its true many employers have health and dental plans or the option to buy into one , you'd be hard pressed to find one as extensive and with as much coverage as the dental plan the teachers have access to .

I've had jobs that had small health plans but they mostly only covered prescription drugs or minor life insurance policy , none of the jobs I've had in recent memory came with a full dental plan like they have , the average Ontario resident does not have access to these kinds of benefits
RCO





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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

( andre marin has an interesting reason for why public sector pay keeps increasing , comparisons , sounds like an odd reason but when you read it makes sense )


Comparisons driving public sector exec pay up


Andre Marin
By Andre Marin
First posted: Saturday, February 04, 2017 02:38 PM EST


Last week, in this space, I shone the light on greedy college presidents licking their chops as they proposed to give themselves massive salary increases by well over $100,000, or 50% more than what they are currently earning.

College presidents’ pays were unfrozen after five years and they were fast to make up lost ground and then some. For example, Algonquin College president Cheryl Jensen in Ottawa was looking at a 40% raise, of up to $124,000 to $445,000, at a time when colleges are protesting the lack of provincial government resources.

Jensen backed down from her initial run at trying for $494,000. “Oh, the complexities of my job!” Right.

It was so obvious that her salary demands were so out of whack. Just down the street from Algonquin College is Canada Post headquarters, where CEO Deepak Chopra, running a national Crown corporation providing service to 15.8 million addresses, employing over 60,000 employees caused a stir when it was found out he was making about $500,000 a year.

Using Deepak as a comparator for Jensen, she should probably be making about $150,000 a year, tops.

The predictable response from the provincial government to the salary folly brewing in our broader public service was to have a “conversation.” It was a weak response, to say the least. Considering that that yearly increase for the Algonquin president is $8,000 more than what an MPP makes per year, it was pretty naive in the end for them to think they could get away with it. What were they thinking?

What a difference a week makes. Public backlash caused Premier Kathleen Wynne to wake up. She finally denounced the proposed increases to college presidents, Ontario Power Generation and Metrolinx transit executives as “just too high. (Public agencies) need to keep and attract great talent, with the right expertise, while ensuring that salaries are fair and appropriate,” said Wynne.

The problem with the comparator pay approach now in place for broader public service executives, is that there’s always an incentive to argue that your salary should creep up the pay scale. Have you heard of any college presidents arguing they were overpaid? Neither have I.

The way the current system works is when the guy at the top of the pay pyramid realizes he’s no longer the best paid, guess what? He argues for an even higher increase as the salary spread between him and others has been closed and he’s no longer the richest one, yet according to precedent he should be. It’s a catch-22 and the madness keeps going.

This game plays itself out, not only with fat-cat Ontario bureaucrats. Cops do the same all the time. Toronto Police get a big increase and the OPP and the RCMP argue salary parity, to then have the Toronto Police pick up the baton and push salaries even higher.

Even though bureaucrats working in the electricity sector have eye-popping salaries — OPG chief executive Jeffrey Lyash’s pay is now set at $3.8 million, by far the highest-paid Ontario bureaucrat — there’s a good argument that their precious skill-sets are greatly in demand. Lyash was drafted to his position from a long career in the energy sector in the U.S.

Thanks to the Liberals, the energy sector is a complete mess. The last straw would be to have some amateur at the helm to make things worse because a qualified leader absconded back to the U.S. As Energy Minister Glenn Thibeault acknowledged: “For me, it’s about safety of our nuclear plants … I’d much rather have them working in our plants than leaving our plants.”

But therein lies the rub. Maybe if our energy sector hadn’t been so utterly wrecked by Wynne’s Liberals, we wouldn’t have to have it babysat by such high-priced help.

— Andre Marin is the former ombudsman of Ontario. He was also a Progressive Conservative candidate in the riding of Ottawa-Vanier.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2017/.....xec-pay-up
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RCO wrote:


but your focused on different benefits that what we meant , I agree that maternity leave is the same everywhere

but lets look at 2 major benefits public school teachers in Ontario have

- pension plans
- dental plans

those 2 benefits are not common if you were to look around at what other employers offer , extensive pension plans are very hard to come by at most employers .
well its true many employers have health and dental plans or the option to buy into one , you'd be hard pressed to find one as extensive and with as much coverage as the dental plan the teachers have access to .

In part I concur.

However the level of the OTIP is largely due to the size of the group insurance. That is something that cannot be overlooked . The larger the base the sweeter the deal that can be worked out.
Manulife handles the teachers dental plan and they certainly make great money from it.

After reviewing what the teachers get I can advise that it is very similar to every dental plan out there, the difference being the co-insurance amounts for the most part. But again, that is due to the volume.
As for the pension, they get a sweet deal w the money matching from the govt. The same benefit for many a union job.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toronto Centre wrote:
Ive looked for two days and nothing I find says the govt gets to pay X and the private sector says they can pay X-1.

The same rate of pregnancy leave
The same rate for minimum wage (really , who would think it different..LOL!)
The same basic rate for optional/mandatory health benefits.

Now, be careful because Fed vs Prov employees means a difference (mainly on holidays)
The above speak to minimums.

Are/can the public sector sweeten the deal? Yes. They do not have a profit mandate .

The same rates are produced for renewals for public sect and private sector benefit plans. The key difference is the volume basis in the private vs public sector.

What that means is a 10 person company vs a 500 person govt department cannot be compared on a one on one basis. Volume changes everything. All it takes is one person to get really sick and the costs are skewed in the private sector so much that changes may HAVE to be made.
In the public sector that does not play out the same way. Volume baby !

ETA: I cannot apply any of this to pension plans. That is whacked out for Teachers/Unions/OPG...grrrr...


Don't worry, the Bolsheviks always get their price, and always lie about it, hiding the truth.

It isn't hard to find serious studies ...

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/comparing-government-and-private-sector-compensation-in-canada.pdf

They find the premium paid to public sector workers is from 4% to 27% ... of course, this is only wages. The gap increases with seniority. The benefits package in government matches the best of benefit packages in the private sector.

Try harder next time.
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
The benefits package in government matches the best of benefit packages in the private sector.

Try harder next time.


May I say Thank you for proving my point ! Thats what I had said.

Much obliged .

Im guessing you will ignore the different minimum wage thingy you bloviated on about?

Yea, chalk that up to another run and hide cuz I got caught out moment.
RCO





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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toronto Centre wrote:
RCO wrote:


but your focused on different benefits that what we meant , I agree that maternity leave is the same everywhere

but lets look at 2 major benefits public school teachers in Ontario have

- pension plans
- dental plans

those 2 benefits are not common if you were to look around at what other employers offer , extensive pension plans are very hard to come by at most employers .
well its true many employers have health and dental plans or the option to buy into one , you'd be hard pressed to find one as extensive and with as much coverage as the dental plan the teachers have access to .

In part I concur.

However the level of the OTIP is largely due to the size of the group insurance. That is something that cannot be overlooked . The larger the base the sweeter the deal that can be worked out.
Manulife handles the teachers dental plan and they certainly make great money from it.

After reviewing what the teachers get I can advise that it is very similar to every dental plan out there, the difference being the co-insurance amounts for the most part. But again, that is due to the volume.
As for the pension, they get a sweet deal w the money matching from the govt. The same benefit for many a union job.



well it might be true in places like "Toronto " where there are more corporate headquarters and higher paying jobs than the rest of the province , dental plans might be more common and similar to the ones teachers have access to

the thing is once you leave the 416/905 areas , the type of jobs available tend to pay less and dental plans are not very common , its not a common benefit to have access to anymore
Bugs





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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toronto Centre wrote:
Bugs wrote:
The benefits package in government matches the best of benefit packages in the private sector.

Try harder next time.


May I say Thank you for proving my point ! Thats what I had said.

Much obliged .

Im guessing you will ignore the different minimum wage thingy you bloviated on about?

Yea, chalk that up to another run and hide cuz I got caught out moment.


How does that prove your point? I doubt you read the article in the eight minutes it took you to respond.

Another source: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/p.....-1.2292650
Quote:

Private sector workers earn less, work more: report

Private sector employees work more and earn less, according to a new CFIB report. Ted Mallett with the CFIB discusses the report.

CFIB chief economist Ted Mallett discusses why government workers make 18-37 per cent more than private sector workers.

Published Monday, March 23, 2015 9:26AM EDT
The average public sector employee makes 18 to 37 per cent more than a comparable employee working in the private sector, according to a new report from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business.

The report, which compares employee compensation in the private and public sectors found that, when salaries, benefits and working hours are factored in, a private sector employee makes up to $8,150 less per year, and works up to six hours more each week, compared to someone doing the same job for the government.

If government workers were paid at the same rate as their private sector counterparts, Canadian taxpayers would save up to $20 billion a year, according to the report.

CFIB chief economist Ted Mallett said, while the numbers are startling, the organization has arrived at similar conclusions in previous reports on the subject.

"We've been finding this for decades," he told CTV's Canada AM on Monday. "The numbers don't really change a whole lot, so we're hoping we can start to get some traction to make the cost of our government a lot more affordable."

He added that the $20 billion figure is likely an underestimate, as the CFIB was not able to find good metrics to measure certain employee benefits.

The report, which relied on data from the 2011 National Household Survey, found that the compensation gap widens when employment benefits including working hours and pensions were taken into account. The findings are based on the average full-time employment earnings of more than 7.2 million Canadians.

Other highlights of the report include:
* The federal government had the largest compensation gap, with a salary premium of 13 per cent, growing to 33.2 per cent once benefits were accounted for;
* The salary premium for municipal employees was 8.9 per cent, growing to 22.3 per cent with benefits;
* The salary premium for provincial government employees was 5.5 per cent, growing to 21.2 per cent with benefits;
* Among the various public sectors, Canada Post employees had one of the biggest salary premiums of 16.6 per cent, growing to 36.9 per cent with benefits;
* For 2010, annual wages and salaries for the public sector ranged from $51,029 to $69,833, compared to $48,872 to $61,688 for private sector employees.


Of course they also hire on the basis of sex and race. But who wants to talk about that kind of injustice? Certainly not Conservatives.
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RCO wrote:

well it might be true in places like "Toronto " where there are more corporate headquarters and higher paying jobs than the rest of the province , dental plans might be more common and similar to the ones teachers have access to

the thing is once you leave the 416/905 areas , the type of jobs available tend to pay less and dental plans are not very common , its not a common benefit to have access to anymore

In a survey of Canada, StatsCan reported 68% of people had a dental plan. 32% dont.

I doubt very much that moving away from TO/GTA would change the rate.

As for pay, again, likely correct but that is a measure of cost of living and not to mention gets skewed due to the house prices once you get near this city.

In the case of Teachers et al, they all go on the same basic blueprint no matter where they are.
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why Ontario government employees cost more ?

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