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Bugs





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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:33 pm    Post subject: Bombardier 'complete failure' delivering streetcars: Tory Reply with quote

We just had a thread on putting tolls on the main arterial roads into Toronto. It relates to the very real problem of transportation in these metropolitan hives. The roads are choked, the air is dubious in some parts of the city, and everything is over-loaded.

More and more, it is becoming apparent that we've gone as far as we can go with cars.

This is another aspect of the problem -- the blundering incompetence of the dreamers setting the priorities for the future TTC! The planners get into the idea that they can make 'development' happen by running transportation where they want. They should be relieving congestion on the surface and checking out alternatives. But this is another problem. Just keeping the equipment up to standard.

Quote:
John Tory accuses Bombardier of ‘complete failure’ on TTC streetcar order

Mayor and TTC chair issue open letter to rail manufacturer blaming city’s transit problems on streetcar delay, and say that overcrowding, delays on some routes is the result.

By BEN SPURRTransportation Reporter
Thu., Dec. 15, 2016
Mayor John Tory and TTC chair Josh Colle have issued a strongly worded open letter to Bombardier expressing their “deep frustration” that the rail manufacturer might miss the 2019 deadline for delivering the city’s new streetcar fleet.

The document, which accuses Bombardier of a “complete failure to perform,” also warns that the city could take additional legal action against the company.

“The delay of new streetcars has now reached a critical tipping point. We are no longer able to sustain our current service levels as a result,” said the letter, which was addressed to Benoit Brossoit, president of Bombardier Transportation’s Americas division.

Tory and Colle issued the correspondence a day after the TTC released a report that warned the Montreal-based company is at risk of missing the 2019 deadline for delivering all 204 new vehicles.

Bombardier has fallen far behind on manufacturing the vehicles, but the TTC has always insisted that the company complete the $1.25-billion order by 2019 as stipulated in the original contract.

The company has maintained it will meet that target, with a spokesperson telling the Star as recently as Wednesday that it would be able to ramp up production fast enough to manufacture the roughly 175 outstanding vehicles over the next three years.

During the company’s investor day Thursday, its president and CEO Alain Bellemare said the firm is “very confident that we will get close” to the deadline.

As the transit agency waits for the new cars, it has pulled some older streetcars out of service in order to overhaul them and extend their lives. The TTC says that has knock-on effects, because buses have to be redeployed to cover streetcar shortages, causing more crowding on bus routes affected.

“The magnitude of the Bombardier delay has meant customers waiting unreasonable amounts of time to board a streetcar and crowding beyond any acceptable standard,” the letter said.

“Bombardier delays have caused customers to wait increasingly long times in the cold and to arrive late to work or school.”

According to the document, the revelation that the 2019 target could slip has prompted the city to seek legal advice on further legal action “to recover additional damages” related to the delays.

The TTC is already suing the company for $50 million in liquidated damages, the maximum it can claim under the terms of the contract.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/12/15/john-tory-accuses-bombardier-of-complete-failure-on-ttc-streetcar-order.html


The TTC pretty much must buy its equipment from Bombardier, I imagine. Didn't Bombardier pick up the business in bankruptcy more less on the understanding that the TTC would buy a certain number of their buses ... am I wrong? Back in Bob Rae days? The planned economy at work.

That's part of the problem. It's like that in many countries where buses are bought by government organizations. Everybody's locked into the arrangement. And that what stands in the way of change, very often.
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
We just had a thread on putting tolls on the main arterial roads into Toronto. It relates to the very real problem of transportation in these metropolitan hives. The roads are choked, the air is dubious in some parts of the city, and everything is over-loaded.

More and more, it is becoming apparent that we've gone as far as we can go with cars.

This is another aspect of the problem -- the blundering incompetence of the dreamers setting the priorities for the future TTC! The planners get into the idea that they can make 'development' happen by running transportation where they want.

The planners of this city , past tense for the most part, are why we are in this predicament in the City of Toronto.

The city turned down numerous options that would have alleviated jams long ago.

For instance...
1) The extension to nowhere on the Gardiner, you know where it sat way up in the sky for decades? That was going to be a thruway that went along the top of the beach via what is Kingston Road. That alone would have taken much of the traffic that now goes up the DVP.
2) The DVP designers and Engineers tried to get more lanes and more straight stretches and was only designed for a few thousand cars per hour. We know what it is now.
3) The Spadina Expressway would have sent another load of cars downtown instead of the DVP as it is now. The houses that would have been torn down to make way, owned by the City for eons, only recently got sold off.

Bill Davis anyone? Lay a good portion at his feet and the rest to planners at City Hall.
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Bombardier 'complete failure' delivering streetcars: Tor Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:


The TTC pretty much must buy its equipment from Bombardier, I imagine. Didn't Bombardier pick up the business in bankruptcy more less on the understanding that the TTC would buy a certain number of their buses ... am I wrong? Back in Bob Rae days? The planned economy at work.


I didn't think Bombardier built buses in North America?
TTC bought a few Prevost, New Flyer, and Orion Buses in the early 1990s as I recall?

All three were (are) Canadian as well.

Did you mean Subways?
Bugs





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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bombardier bought a bus factory in Thunder Bay back at the time that Mulroney was making sure that Quebec got all the drug companies located in Quebec, as well as pillaging the wreckage of Ontario industry, looking for jewels like de Havilland.

Remember Quebec Inc.? Don't you remember Mulroney grabbing the maintenance contract from Winnipeg? That was just before he tried to take over the Federal government for the permanent benefit of Quebec -- you know, the Meech Lake thing? You might recall, Meech Lake was the thing that destroyed the Progressive Conservatives in all the non-Danny Williams parts of English-speaking Canada.

Quote:

Bombardier’s Thunder Bay plant hit with supply chain woes
Peter Kuitenbrouwer | January 5, 2015 | Last Updated: Jan 5 9:13 AM ET

THUNDER BAY – The Bombardier plant here, which sprawls on the Kaministiquia River near the city’s airport, is so big that the company maintains a fleet of 100 adult tricycles, which workers pedal through the endless corridors of the facility to deliver parts, tools and paint.

The 102-year-old factory — founded as Can Car, or Canadian Car and Foundry — has a storied history. In its first decade, it received orders for 9,000 rail boxcars, along with a dozen minesweepers for the French navy. In the Second World War, the plant built 1,451 Hawker Hurricane fighter airplanes for the RAF and the RCAF; its workforce peaked at about 7,000, including 3,000 women. In the 1970s and 1980s, the plant built the streetcars that ply Toronto’s streets, along with over 1,000 double-decker commuter rail cars for GO Transit, the Agence métropolitaine de transport in Montreal, and 14 U.S. transit systems, including services in California, Utah, New Mexico and Florida. Bombardier Inc. bought the plant in 1992.

The factory secured its future when it won orders in 2007 for 480 subway cars for Toronto. Then in 2009 Toronto ordered 204 low-floor, air-conditioned light rail vehicles — also known as streetcars — from Bombardier for $1.2 billion, for delivery by 2018.
http://business.financialpost......chain-woes


So, who do you blame? The TTC has gone 'all in' on making sure Bombardier can stay in business. If I recall correctly, there was one bid where Bombardier didn't even qualify, so they held a 'do-over' and had another competition. I wonder if Bombardier's competitors even bother to put a bid together after that performance.

It's a state-capitalism venture ... the question is -- who's the captive? The Company, or the City of Toronto? It seems like it's the City.

John Tory headed up a government monopoly, didn't he? Rogers? So he knows how one hand washes the other ... He can usually be counted on to play the game.

Which is why big government is a problem in itself.
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
Bombardier bought a bus factory in Thunder Bay back at the time that Mulroney was making sure that Quebec got all the drug companies located in Quebec, as well as pillaging the wreckage of Ontario industry, looking for jewels like de Havilland.


The plant in Thunder Bay is a Rail Facility;
Its the facility that builds the double deckers for Go Transit as well as a portion of the LRVs for Toronto.

What I believe you are referring is to UTDC which was a Crown Corporation which built trains which was sold to Lavalin which merged with SNC in the early 1990s was planning to sell the old UDTC assets to Westinghouse which I don't believe had any interest in maintaining manufacturing in Canada which in turn the government reacquired then flipped to Bombardier in 1991 who promised to keep both UDTC facilities in Ontario (Kingston & Thunder Bay) operational.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, what I am talking about is industrial businesses being 'sold' at bargain prices to keep jobs in those communities, with the promise that they would have a flow of work that would keep the factories open. And in the process it is entirely likely the TTC has lost its ability to take its business elsewhere.

It's the best kind of monopoly. Where's the risk if you have an order for 400 subway cars. Streetcars are rail vehicles, and that's the order that Tory is complaining about. Where's the competition?

I don't know what you do about it. Tory is going public for some reason. Maybe he thinks these companies react to shame. Personally, I think he's posing. He's pretending he's the defender of the public with his ineffective blather.

As I said, he's run a government monopoly and he knows better than most how to abuse customers. So he knows what the situation is.
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:

It's the best kind of monopoly. Where's the risk if you have an order for 400 subway cars. Streetcars are rail vehicles, and that's the order that Tory is complaining about. Where's the competition?


Let me play Devil's advocate.
At present Bombardier has three contracts in Ontario;
The TTC Streetcars, the Metrolinx Streetcars, and the Go Transit Double Deckers;
Two behind schedule, one on schedule.

All three contracts carried a 30% Canadian Content Requirement and a Final Assembly in Ontario requirement.

Would you have rather dropped those requirements and allowed Siemens to build in Sacramento or CAF to build in Horsehead, NY Or would you have rather used those contracts to entice someone else to set-up shop in Ontario?
Bugs





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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know what to do. That's my point -- this is how a state-planned economy works. They set it up and you're stuck with it. But Tory is just grandstanding and has no cards to play. At least that's my bet.

Why is Bombardier in the transit business in the first place? Wasn't it all about making things nice for Quebec Inc? Or was it about saving jobs in Thunder Bay. Probably both.

That would make efficiency the third priority.

Tory seems to think that publishing an open letter is 'doing something'. I just don't think he should get away with that. This is Mr. Silver Spoon himself, after all. Where did he ever succeed, other than at Rogers, where the question ought to be -- how could a cable TV monopoly fail? Here he's faking it, pretending he's "doing something."
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
I don't know what to do. That's my point -- this is how a state-planned economy works. They set it up and you're stuck with it. But Tory is just grandstanding and has no cards to play. At least that's my bet.


He has zero cards to play;
If the trains arriving were not reliable, perhaps but with the TTC singing the praises of the product but damning the delivery issues moving the project to another company could easily cost four years and could be far worse (See Houston Light Rail Issues)

Right now he is grandstanding hoping that he gets his cars faster and they speed up production.

Bugs wrote:
Why is Bombardier in the transit business in the first place? Wasn't it all about making things nice for Quebec Inc? Or was it about saving jobs in Thunder Bay. Probably both.


We don't really see it,
But they are massive globally on the transit side.
I believe they are the second largest manufacture of trains in the world, it just seems that the projects domestically tend to go sideways sometimes.

Bugs wrote:
Here he's faking it, pretending he's "doing something."


I agree,
But isn't that what politics is LOL :)
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