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Toronto Centre





Joined: 12 Feb 2011
Posts: 587
Reputation: 91Reputation: 91
votes: 3
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs, do you ever lose that thin skinned immature outlook you have?

Do you always have to try and make it personal ?

Anyhow.....not sure what you are posting here , perhaps loosely based on something I wrote.

But lets look.....

There were no facts published, so not sure why/how you want to be juvenile and suggest I make my own up. (Dont forget buttercup, you got schooled/embarassed on that earlier-Still upset huh? Let it go)

If more than half the pop lives in the GTA......do the math.

I said nothing about the money belonging to the govt. Nice construct there.
"Back when we were guided by the political traditions of Westminster, we understood that taxes were used to pay the expenses of the community. " -Still do.

Ontario is a community so to speak. A large one. Some areas of it cannot afford to build 'things' they need. So the community aspect of it kicks in.

Fine by me.

But the rural morons who whine and complain that "Toronto" should pay for what Toronto wants/needs gets tiresome. Most fo the roads rural meatheads use wouldnt be there except for the largesse of the pool contributing.

And I dont begrudge a thing to any of them. Community and all.

"I live in a part of Ontario that is a producer of wealth. " LOL...that whole wide area pales against one block of downtown TO.

Bugs, dont be upset, you know it and you also hypocritically spelled it out in your post.

GTA AND Toronto are the engine. Good on you for acknowledging it.

For instance you know 'engine' means money. Aint no money in the sticks of SW Ontario. Enough for their own I suppose, but beyond that they all suck the same teat of the Provincial Govt....who provides that sustenance from TO/GTA.

You're welcome. We here in TOGTA dont mind a bit. Afterall...community...ya know?

"
Why does anyone think that Toronto's the engine of anything but smog?"

Even that we arent very good at. London,Windsor, Hamilton are all far worse. But then again, you know that, you also know that in large part that is a product of geography, the winds from the SW and the industries beyond our border.
But nice try to get a dig in.
Bugs





Joined: 16 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toronto is the engine of growth? You said nothing that supports your claim -- which is important, considering that this is the claim you use to justify taking the wealth created by the people in North Bay and Saskatoon (as if it were yours) for the benefit of Torontonians -- who generally hold the productive people in this country in contempt, if they even know where those towns are.

Why is Toronto the 'engine of growth'? Still waiting.

Is it because it's so big? Is it because there are so many government offices there? Is it because the CBC is there? What does it actually produce, other than Little Mosque in the Prairie episodes? I mean, is there anything of value, that people would actually pay for if they had a choice? Perhaps it's because of the big universities there? Those, too, are largely taxpayer-funded institutions. All of it is public money.

What does Toronto do that makes the uninitiated think it is the 'engine of growth'? Hmmm?

What proportion of the city's revenues even come from taxes, anyway? Is it as high as a third? The City of Toronto is like a giant sucking sound for money -- It could be a branch plant of Ottawa, taking their transfer payments, and those from Queen's Park, and handing them out to its patronage partners. How much of its population is subsidized by welfare or some form of 'assisted' housing? You have to wonder -- how much of Toronto would be left if the capital went to London, Ont? How much 'economy' is there left?

What the city runs itself is deplorable. Need I say 'public housing' again? How about David Crombie drawing a salary all his days to -- wait for it -- to 'save' the waterfront! Haw, haw, haw ...' that's a horse that left the barn. How about the garbage pickup? What do they do that's any good, compared to other cities with the pretensions of Toronto?

There are facts in there. You know the basic picture is true. So why are you asking for 'facts' if you already know the broad strokes?

And while we're at it, I don't see any facts that are verifiable from you. I see no links, nothing that would support your claims.

I don't come on here because I am a party guy. It's not because I am a 'conservative' personality. I detest the "search committee" atmosphere these party people create. (Don't we all know they'll just fall behind whoever, like sheep waiting for their shepherd.) Most of them are stolid plodders on policy, with no imagination. I try to bring some animation to this bunch of conformers simply because I can't support anyone else.

I think you're an asshole because you try to stifle what could be an interesting discussion, and rarely (if ever) make a worthwhile point. It isn't that you oppose what I say -- I'm into that. It's that you only leave assertions, many of them unlikely. You prefer to try to diminish my worthwhile points, whether they are well put or not. This present discussion is a case in point. You don't seem to have a real answer at all, just a few snide shots, and a vague impulse to defend everything the civil servants of Toronto do, no matter how dumb it is in hindsight. You don't give us facts, you just act as if you have some kind of authority. Sorry, you don't.

I have a lot of flaws, no doubt, but I can avoid stupid insults. You seem to revert to that as a default. As for my so-called "immaturity", I wish you'd point out exactly what you mean, because otherwise, you're the immature one.
Toronto Centre





Joined: 12 Feb 2011
Posts: 587
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Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
Toronto is the engine of growth?

It sure is.
Produces about 20% of the entire Canuck GDP. 6 million people will do that.
"As Canada’s largest city, Toronto is a global business hub with world-class talent, post-secondary institutions and international markets. Toronto’s GDP is almost 20% of Canada’s economic output". http://considercanada.com/blog.....-of-canada

Toronto does 50% of Ontarios GDP. Trade to the USA is $128B....do you really think the lions share of this does NOT get generated via the GTA?

And that means that the City needs better transit/transport support from the Feds/Prov govts.
As Toronto goes so goes the province. Get the goods and people moving and everyone benefits.
Quote:

You said nothing that supports your claim -- which is important, considering that this is the claim you use to justify taking the wealth created by the people in North Bay ...for the benefit of Torontonians -- who generally hold the productive people in this country in contempt, if they even know where those towns are.

No one, and certainly not me has ever said what you say. Thats why its frustrating to discuss with you, these tangents and thoughts not expressed.

What I am saying is that the good people of North Bay and elsewhere in Ontario have benefitted greatly by the largesse of taxes paid via GTA/TO residents. There is no 'want' to steal wealth from anyone. Community as discussed earlier is all well and fine. Huntsville going to build a new hospital soon. Guess where a large portion of the finances will originate?
Quote:

Why is Toronto the 'engine of growth'? Still waiting.

I dunno....go look here and tell me why .. http://www.statcan.gc.ca/table.....15-eng.htm
Quote:

Is it because it's so big? Is it because there are so many government offices there? Is it because the CBC is there? What does it actually produce, other than Little Mosque in the Prairie episodes? I mean, is there anything of value, that people would actually pay for if they had a choice? Perhaps it's because of the big universities there? Those, too, are largely taxpayer-funded institutions. All of it is public money.

It is big, with lots of people (GTA 6+Million) paying taxes so yes...size does matter.

As the 4th largest city in North America , just what are you missing ?

What does Toronto do that makes the uninitiated think it is the 'engine of growth'? Hmmm?
Quote:

What proportion of the city's revenues even come from taxes, anyway?

Property tax in Toronto generates about 40% of total revenue. https://www1.toronto.ca/City%20Of%20Toronto/Strategic%20Communications/City%20Budget/2013/Financial%20Condition%20and%20Performance/revenues.pdf

Quote:
The City of Toronto is like a giant sucking sound for money -- It could be a branch plant of Ottawa, taking their transfer payments, and those from Queen's Park, and handing them out to its patronage partners. How much of its population is subsidized by welfare or some form of 'assisted' housing? You have to wonder -- how much of Toronto would be left if the capital went to London, Ont? How much 'economy' is there left?

If you mean sucking sound of money leaving for Queens Park and Ottawa and being spent elsewhere, then yes you are correct.
Quote:

What the city runs itself is deplorable. Need I say 'public housing' again?

Im sorry but you have now jumped the shark from sublime to ridiculous. Public housing while having difficult issues is certainly not horrible , apart from the odd pocket. In the overall scheme of things, all public housing has certain 'issues' in part due to who lives in them.
Quote:
How about the garbage pickup? What do they do that's any good, compared to other cities with the pretensions of Toronto?

Not sure what you are getting to here.
Half the city garbage is privately run. The other half will be soon. City is saving money.
Quote:


And while we're at it, I don't see any facts that are verifiable from you. I see no links, nothing that would support your claims.

Noted and corrected.

I would have thought that anyone living in this Province would easily know that Toronto supplies the wealth of the province. Without it and its money rural Ontarians would be in trouble.
Some I suppose live in some sort of bubble and cant see the forest for the trees.
Quote:

I think you're an asshole because you try to stifle what could be an interesting discussion, and rarely (if ever) make a worthwhile point.
Sigh...
All points one who looks at this issue from inside Ontario should already know about. Perhaps our educators have failed in some regards. No wait , that cannot be true as Ontario ranks 4th in the world on Education. Damn...huh? http://www.conferenceboard.ca/.....ation.aspx

Quote:
..., just a few snide shots, and a vague impulse to defend everything the civil servants of Toronto do, no matter how dumb it is in hindsight.

Plenty of dumb things get done here, as anywhere really. But on the whole.....the above links prove that not to be the case.

Quote:
.. but I can avoid stupid insults.
Sure hope so
RCO





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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

( there are reports out that wynne will deny tory the authority to install tolls and instead give cities extra money for transit , I guess at queen's park money grows on trees especially in a year before an election )


Wynne to deny Mayor Tory's plan to toll DVP, Gardiner: report


Local


by The Canadian Press
Posted Jan 26, 2017 9:22 pm EST
Last Updated Jan 26, 2017 at 10:55 pm EST



Premier Kathleen Wynne is set to deny Toronto Mayor John Tory’s request for the ability to impose tolls on the Don Valley Parkway and Gardiner Expressway, The Canadian Press has learned.

An official with knowledge of the decision but who wasn’t authorized to speak about it on the record said that it’s about “affordability.”

Instead, Wynne will announce on Friday the government will provide hundreds of millions of dollars for municipalities for transit in the form of a gas tax enhancement.

The event will start at 9:35 a.m. in Richmond Hill. Watch the live stream here.

The source said the conversation with Toronto about tolls could perhaps be revisited when its Smart Track plan is in place, but “until there are viable options in place” for commuters, the province won’t approve tolls.

Tory expressed displeasure with the decision in a statement issued Thursday night.

“If the Ontario government has decided to deny a regulatory change requested by the overwhelming majority of city council, the mayor would expect the provincial government to take serious and immediate action to address the city’s transit, transportation, childcare and housing needs,” the statement said.

Tory has previously said a $2 toll would raise about $200 million a year to help transit funding and split the cost between Toronto taxpayers and the 40 per cent of commuters from outside the city who use the Don Valley Parkway and Gardiner Expressway daily.

Wynne had appeared to have been seriously considering the toll proposal last month, when she said the Liberals would not take “unilateral action against the city of Toronto.”

Approving tolls would have angered the voters from outside the city who use those highways – commuters from so-called 905 ridings in which the Liberals need to fend off strong pushes from the

Progressive Conservatives to be competitive in the next election.

The Tories leapt at the opportunity Thursday night to remind Ontarians they had been against Tory’s toll proposal from the start, retweeting their own old posts about it on Twitter.

The New Democrats had also been opposed to the toll proposal, saying that instead more funding must go to municipal transit systems.

With files from News Staff

http://www.680news.com/2017/01.....er-report/
RCO





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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

( Toronto city council is not to happy wynne has killed there potential cash cow )


Councillors blast 'short-sighted' decision to block tolls on Gardiner, DVP


Premier Kathleen Wynne criticized for not having the "political courage" to sign off on Toronto plan.


Premier Kathleen Wynne is slamming the brakes on Toronto Mayor John Tory’s plan to toll the Don Valley Parkway and the Gardiner Expressway by pledging additional transit funding.



By David RiderCity Hall Bureau Chief

Fri., Jan. 27, 2017



Shocked and furious Toronto politicians say Premier Kathleen Wynne has “kneecapped” the city by rejecting a proposal for tolls on the Gardiner Expressway and the Don Valley Parkway.

RELATED:

Kathleen Wynne stopping John Tory’s plan for tolls on DVP, Gardiner

They charge that Wynne, who was initially supportive of the plan, caved in to 905-belt Liberal MPPs by saying Toronto can’t toll users of two highways for which it bears the full costs, and that means it's time to push the province to upload other ostensibly provincial costs for which the city pays the bills.

While welcoming Wynne’s promise to give all Ontario municipalities a bigger share of the gas tax, they doubted Toronto's predicted $170 million-per-year share will come close to long-term revenues forecast from tolls endorsed by Mayor John Tory and city council.

“I think it’s a very short-sighted and politically minded decision by a government that is not too popular and won’t let Toronto do something that is fiscally responsible,” Etobicoke Councillor John Campbell said in an interview Friday.

“The bottom line is, Wynne didn’t have the political courage to allow us to do that. It’s galling and it’s totally irresponsible. The province has talked about Toronto needing to be fiscally responsible and they gave us an option and now this,” Campbell said.

“Wynne is afraid of the backlash from Mississauga, Peel, Halton and Durham, but why shouldn’t people who live there help pay for roads they drive on every day?”

Campbell said the city needs to start talking to the province about taking ownership of the Gardiner and DVP and their huge costs, along with social housing, child care and other Toronto costs more suited to a provincial government.


Councillor Josh Colle, the TTC chair, echoed that sentiment and said he and others at city hall were blindsided by Wynne’s flip flop.

“I’m really shocked,” he said early Friday. “We always take the (gas tax) money which goes to transit but, if reports of our share are true, there will be a gap left to be bridged in terms of revenues. Maybe it’s just time to upload those roads to the province.”

The city expected to get between $160 million and $300 million per year if the toll was $2 to $5.20 per trip, but could have raised that charge to deal with inflation and other city needs.

While Wynne had publicly backed Tory’s plan, many Liberals were anxious about it with an election looming in 2018 and, sources say, had given the premier an earful.

Tory is not attending Wynne’s Friday morning announcement in Richmond Hill about her toll decision, instead opting to speak to reporters himself at 11 a.m.

In a statement Thursday night, Tory said Toronto council sent a “very clear message” last month that tolls were part of a plan to help fix traffic congestion across the region.

If Wynne refuses to use her majority in the legislature to get toll-enabling regulations passed, he said, Toronto expects her to take “serious and immediate action to address the city’s transit, transportation, childcare and housing needs.”

Senior city hall sources told the Star that Tory was not blindsided Thursday as the news broke, but the city and province had been moving ahead with plans for tolling — including a city staff report expected later this year on the topic and negotiations ongoing on needed regulation. Things changed, a source said, after Wynne met with her cabinet last week.

The city will accept the new gas tax funds, another source said Thursday night, but “it’s still not what we could have realized through tolls.”

Tory will ask Wynne how the province will “help fund our priorities as they have taken away our ability to deal with it in our own,” the source said.

Left-wing councillors, some who cautiously praised Tory’s move in backing tolls, tweeted their frustrations but were not rushing to the mayor’s defence.

“Tonight in Ontario politics — this is what running scared looks like,” downtown Councillor Joe Cressy tweeted Thursday night.

Councillor Joe Mihevc called it a “kick in the head” to council’s authority.

Councillor Gord Perks, a staunch opponent of the mayor, earlier called the tolls announcement a distraction, noting it would not be enough to cover billions in unfunded transit needs. And the tolls plan did nothing to address the bulk of $33 billion in unfunded capital projects — including a $1.6-billion repair backlog for crumbing social housing buildings.

“The question is, what’s next?” Colle said. “I think we have to look at all the things the city does that is provincial in nature and how we square the financing of them, whether it be roads we own in name only but have no control over or social housing.

“I’m not going to stomp around but it does require a further conversation about who pays for what.”

City of Toronto chief planner Jennifer Keesmaat tweeted her displeasure, saying tolls would have had benefits beyond city revenue: “Tolls are also about Traffic Demand Management. About dynamic pricing, to ease congestion - to better use an asset. Huge missed opportunity.”

“Province implements HOT lanes (QEW) to manage congestion. But, denies Toronto the opportunity to do the same on the DVP + Gardiner. Hmmm...”

Civic leaders in the 905 area, who will now also benefit from an increased share of gas tax revenue, welcomed the cancelling of tolls, which will save their residents from having to pay to get into the city.

In Mississauga, Mayor Bonnie Crombie said a doubling of gas tax funds for her city would be a welcome investment in transit.

“But we need to have an honest debate about how to fund transit with revenue tools that ensure permanent, dedicated and long-term funding,” she said, noting Mississauga does not have the same options available to Toronto.

Oshawa Mayor John Henry called the cancelling of Toronto’s tolls plan “great news” for his and other GTA residents who “travel into the city to work, for healthcare and to enjoy all that Toronto has to offer.”

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2017/01/27/councillors-blast-short-sighted-decision-to-block-tolls-on-gardiner-dvp.html
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cosmostein wrote:
It will bury him in the suburbs of Toronto;
I would imagine this has more to do with shaking down the Federal Government for funding then actually moving forward this concept.


I guess I had it mostly right.
RCO





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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cosmostein wrote:
cosmostein wrote:
It will bury him in the suburbs of Toronto;
I would imagine this has more to do with shaking down the Federal Government for funding then actually moving forward this concept.


I guess I had it mostly right.



I don't think Wynne had the political capital to push thru the tolls at this time either , I'd guess her mpp's from the suburbs are already getting nervous about 2018 and these tolls were bound to be unpopular in their ridings .

but its a mystery where this extra $ money is suddenly coming from ? considering the province is massively in debt , there seems to suddenly be lots of extra money for wynne to use to try and solve her problems in advance of the next election
RCO





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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How Premier Kathleen Wynne betrayed Toronto Mayor John Tory on road tolls: Cohn


There’s never been a better time for road tolls than right now, right here, with a right-wing mayor leading the charge.



Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne has gone against Toronto Mayor John Tory's road-toll plan.




By Martin Regg CohnOntario Politics Columnist

Fri., Jan. 27, 2017



This is what political desperation smells like, wafting over the fumes of traffic jams.

And this is what a wounded premier sounds like, trying to fend off political gridlock.

On the road to rejecting highway tolls, Kathleen Wynne’s lane changes take the breath away — left turns, right turns, U-turns and wrong turns. The duplicity and dishonesty are indefensible, the hyperbole and hypocrisy hard to fathom.

But it is the missed opportunity that truly stings.


Road-toll veto hampers Toronto’s ability to tackle gridlock, says city’s chief planner

Don’t be deceived by Wynne’s crass appeal to delay the day of reckoning over road tolls, motivated by her sudden sensitivity to commuters’ pocketbooks.

For there has never been a better time for road tolls than right now, right here, with a right-wing mayor in charge — leading the charge — in Toronto. John Tory handed the premier a rare political gift when he persuaded his own rambunctious city council to back his bold appeal for tolls on the DVP and Gardiner.

Bad enough that Wynne lacked the political will to show leadership two years ago, when she still could have, before her popularity plunged off the guardrails.

More galling and appalling is how she has sabotaged Tory’s efforts to lead the way in her stead, by erecting her own roadblocks. And double-crossed the mayor who has gone out of his way to be a progressive partner in the exercise of power.

The premier has long been a believer in tolls, from her days as transport minister. But political ambition always got in the way — a leadership race, minority government, the 2014 election campaign.

If not then, when? If not now, never.

This week, with a 2018 election looming — leery of a caucus revolt, ministerial resignations and a voter rebellion — the premier feared for her own survival. And promptly renounced the principles she has long enunciated.

“People need to have choices,” she proclaimed in the suburban setting of Richmond Hill, explaining why she had overruled Toronto’s city council.

But politicians, too, must choose. And Wynne is buying herself more time by buying us off with our own money.

This isn’t about “feeling your pain.” It’s about fending off her political pain.

The premier is not only betraying her own personal belief in road tolls, but going against her stated conviction that decisions by local municipalities must be respected. For that was the sacred principle she exalted when abiding by Toronto’s controversial support for a costly and inefficient Scarborough subway extension, motivated by political expediency at both levels of government.

Now the mayor, a former Progressive Conservative leader, has metamorphosed into a progressive activist, while the premier who once talked of an “activist centre” embraces stasis. Tory opted for tolls over privatization of Toronto Hydro, while Wynne chose privatization of provincially owned Hydro One for fear of imposing tolls on a fickle public.

Having partially sold off our public utility, Wynne now finds herself flush with cash, which she is now proffering to Toronto (and other municipalities) as a way to pre-empt tolls. But this is too clever by half.

The proven appeal of tolls is twofold: raising money for transit, while also ratcheting down congestion. Tolls are not just a “revenue tool” (Wynne’s preferred euphemism in 2013 when she feared even uttering the word), but a traffic management tool.

Which is why Queen’s Park is shortchanging us coming and going.

The premier claims to be giving Toronto the money it would have raised with its initial $2 tolls, but she is being deliberately obtuse. Those rates, right out of the starting gate, would inevitably have risen as commuters grew accustomed to the costs — and benefits — of tolls. Toronto cannot now capture those future anticipated revenues.

Road tolls are not a Bolshevik plot to pick people’s pockets — quite the opposite. They are as American as apple pie, inspired by the market principle that road pricing is an economically efficient way to allocate a scarce public commodity — highway lanes — in order to avoid the lineups that plague Communist countries. Toll-free highways lead inexorably to stop-and-go traffic. By contrast, tolled “freeways” (an admirable American misnomer) and turnpikes allow working-class U.S. commuters to navigate their way to work and back, at the right price, at the right time.

Yet Ontario’s politicians are allergic to the logic of economics, held hostage by the anti-tax, anti-toll impulses that are the currency of today’s increasingly coarse discourse.

That’s why Patrick Brown, who now heads the PC opposition once led by Tory, served notice on both the mayor and the premier that tolls were a frontal attack on suburban commuters. And it explains why NDP Leader Andrea Horwath dutifully followed Brown into battle, echoing his populist rhetoric.

This anti-toll tag team panders to the belief that suburbanites have a God-given right to drive for free at high speed until they grind to a halt on gridlocked highways. Now the premier is taking a page from Brown — and no longer singing from the same songbook as Toronto’s mayor.

A more confident and agile premier could have cast this as entirely Tory’s doing, letting him absorb the suburban barbs — part of the job description for any Toronto mayor. Instead, her damage control smacks of desperation, which rarely pays dividends.

Indeed, Wynne’s expedient turnaround undermines her own narrative as a putative progressive standing up to Brown, whom she casts as an “opportunist” who raises his finger to the wind at every turn.

Now, Wynne’s Liberals look like the party of both wind vanes and wind turbines, twisting and turning in the chill wind of a pre-election storm

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/01/27/how-premier-kathleen-wynne-betrayed-toronto-mayor-john-tory-on-road-tolls-cohn.html
RCO





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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

( this article would seem to indicate there was never much support within the liberal caucus for the tolls to begin with , not even in Toronto )


Liberals relieved toll scheme axed


Liberal ministers expressed relief Thursday at the first cabinet meeting since Premier Kathleen Wynne stopped Toronto Mayor John Tory’s plan to toll the Gardiner Expressway and the Don Valley Parkway.


Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne stopped Toronto's plan to put tolls on the Gardiner Expressway and Don Valley Parkway.


By Robert BenzieQueen's Park Bureau Chief

Thu., Feb. 2, 2017


It was starting to take a toll.

Liberal ministers expressed relief Thursday at the first cabinet meeting since Premier Kathleen Wynne stopped Toronto Mayor John Tory’s plan to toll the Gardiner Expressway and the Don Valley Parkway.

As first disclosed by the Star, ministers from the 905 region warned Wynne at their previous cabinet meeting on Jan. 18 that tolling the city-owned highways would hurt them in next year’s provincial election.

It was their alarm — and a groundswell of opposition from other Liberal MPPs and Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area municipal leaders — that forced the premier to make the U-turn that infuriated Tory.

Finance Minister Charles Sousa, who represents Mississauga South, said residents “have stated very clearly and loudly” their concern about tolls without other transportation options available.

“They welcome the decision — it’s a decision that they’ve asked us to make,” said Sousa, noting the province is doubling the share of provincial gasoline tax revenues to cities, which will mean an additional $170 million a year for Toronto alone.

“People all over Ontario — certainly the municipalities that now qualify for more revenue — they’re happy,” he said.

Tourism, Culture, and Sport Minister Eleanor McMahon, who represents Burlington, said “the issue of affordability” was top of mind among her constituents.

“People who travel to Toronto and have to take their vehicle … would have been faced with increased costs of an average of about $1,000 a year,” said McMahon, noting more public transit improvements are still required.

“We’re not quite there yet and until we are I think it’s unfair that I ask my constituents to pay that,” she said.

“I’m happy that we came to the decision that we did. The premier sought advice and listened to her caucus and to concerns.”

Transportation Minister Steven Del Duca, who represents Vaughan, while his constituents know transit improvements are coming, there still aren’t enough options for commuters.

“They can see that the subway is going to be running to Vaughan in a few months. They know that we’re deploying more service on the Barrie GO line; they know that we’re building an LRT along with York Region along Hwy. 7. So they can see the evidence that it’s coming,” said Del Duca.

“But they know it doesn’t exist right now. They know they don’t have alternatives. But, most importantly, they know they’re feeling a pinch on their pocketbooks, generally speaking. They have that anxiety. I think it’s reasonable and justifiable.”

Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation Minister David Zimmer, who represents Willowdale, said residents in his riding were wary of increased gridlock on Bayview Ave. and Leslie St. if motorists skipped the DVP to avoid tolls.

“The folks in Willowdale are happy to see the traffic continue on the Don Valley rather than go down Leslie, Bayview, Don Mills Rd., and so on,” said Zimmer.

Liberal insiders note there was never a major 416-905 split in caucus over tolls.

There were only three MPPs from Toronto who spoke in favour of them.

Both Progressive Conservative Leader Patrick Brown and NDP Leader Andrea Horwath were also against tolling the roads

https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2017/02/02/liberals-relieved-toll-scheme-axed.html
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RCO wrote:
cosmostein wrote:
cosmostein wrote:
It will bury him in the suburbs of Toronto;
I would imagine this has more to do with shaking down the Federal Government for funding then actually moving forward this concept.


I guess I had it mostly right.



I don't think Wynne had the political capital to push thru the tolls at this time either , I'd guess her mpp's from the suburbs are already getting nervous about 2018 and these tolls were bound to be unpopular in their ridings .

but its a mystery where this extra $ money is suddenly coming from ? considering the province is massively in debt , there seems to suddenly be lots of extra money for wynne to use to try and solve her problems in advance of the next election


She could have sat back and let John Tory twist in the wind but the calculation I am sure John Tory made was that either the Ontario or Federal Liberals were not going to let this be hung on them.

Wynne is facing an election before Tory;
Him shrugging his shoulders and saying we don't get the support we need from Provincial and Federal Government hits the OLP right in their biggest area of support

On the flip side Tolls would have made any candidate from the Pre-Mega City Toronto Suburbs a strong contender against Tory in next years Municipal Election.

Ultimately Tory shook down the Province for the funds he needed and gets to move forward with no road-tolls.

Good for him.

It also opened a discussion about if the DVP and Gardner should be handed over to the Province which would be excellent, if only the TTC was next.

As to where the money will come from;

When has that every been a consideration from this Government?
Its Patrick Browns problem.
RCO





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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

( this poll seems isn't that much of a surprise that killing the tolls would be more popular in the 905 area than Toronto itself )


Wynne scores points in 905 by killing tolls: Poll

By Shawn Jeffords, Political Bureau Chief
First posted: Sunday, February 05, 2017 01:34 PM EST | Updated: Sunday, February 05, 2017 01:38 PM EST


Premier Kathleen Wynne’s decision to spike Mayor John Tory’s toll plan has earned her kudos in the 905 and scorn in the 416 area, according to a new poll.

The survey conducted by Campaign Research and provided exclusively to the Toronto Sun, shows that almost 56% of voters in the 905 — the vast area around Toronto — are happy Wynne slammed the brakes on Tory’s plan.

But when the focus shifts to Toronto, the results are reversed, with almost 58% upset that the premier shelved Tory’s tolls.

Wynne announced she would not grant Toronto permission to toll the Gardiner and Don Valley Parkway on Jan. 27. Instead she beefing-up municipal gas tax revenues for transit.

Campaign Research CEO Eli Yufest said the move has proven popular where Wynne needs it most.

“While this decision of the premier’s to prohibit Toronto from tolling its own highways is unpopular in the city itself, it is very popular in the commuter belt surrounding Toronto, and this is where the Liberals need to hold seats, and even make inroads, if they are to have a chance in the next election,” he said.

But if turfing tolls was meant to win votes across Ontario, it might not move the needle for the Liberal government.

The poll also says 40% of those surveyed are less likely to vote for Liberals because of her flip-flop tolls. About one-fifth of those surveyed (21%) said they’d be more likely to vote for the premier because of the move.

Meanwhile, in another Campaign Research poll provided to the Sun, Mayor Tory’s popularity remains strong despite the toll fiasco.

A majority of city residents approve of the job he’s doing (56%), with 23% registering their disapproval and 21% offering no opinion.

“The mayor is popular among those who vote: men, the elderly and the wealthy,” Yufest said. “This is the kind of coalition which can deliver a solid result on election day.”

The polls, conducted Jan. 29, were interactive voice response surveys of 676 Ontario voters and 362 Toronto voters respectively. Campaign Research considers the results accurate for the Ontario poll within 4% , 19 times out of 20, and within 5%, 19 times out of 20 for its Toronto survey.

http://www.torontosun.com/2017.....tolls-poll
Bugs





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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toronto Centre wrote:
Bugs wrote:
Toronto is the engine of growth?

It sure is.
Produces about 20% of the entire Canuck GDP. 6 million people will do that.
"As Canada’s largest city, Toronto is a global business hub with world-class talent, post-secondary institutions and international markets. Toronto’s GDP is almost 20% of Canada’s economic output". http://considercanada.com/blog.....-of-canada

Toronto does 50% of Ontarios GDP. Trade to the USA is $128B....do you really think the lions share of this does NOT get generated via the GTA?

And that means that the City needs better transit/transport support from the Feds/Prov govts.
As Toronto goes so goes the province. Get the goods and people moving and everyone benefits.
Quote:

You said nothing that supports your claim -- which is important, considering that this is the claim you use to justify taking the wealth created by the people in North Bay ...for the benefit of Torontonians -- who generally hold the productive people in this country in contempt, if they even know where those towns are.

No one, and certainly not me has ever said what you say. Thats why its frustrating to discuss with you, these tangents and thoughts not expressed.

What I am saying is that the good people of North Bay and elsewhere in Ontario have benefitted greatly by the largesse of taxes paid via GTA/TO residents. There is no 'want' to steal wealth from anyone. Community as discussed earlier is all well and fine. Huntsville going to build a new hospital soon. Guess where a large portion of the finances will originate?
Quote:

Why is Toronto the 'engine of growth'? Still waiting.

I dunno....go look here and tell me why .. http://www.statcan.gc.ca/table.....15-eng.htm
Quote:

Is it because it's so big? Is it because there are so many government offices there? Is it because the CBC is there? What does it actually produce, other than Little Mosque in the Prairie episodes? I mean, is there anything of value, that people would actually pay for if they had a choice? Perhaps it's because of the big universities there? Those, too, are largely taxpayer-funded institutions. All of it is public money.

It is big, with lots of people (GTA 6+Million) paying taxes so yes...size does matter.

As the 4th largest city in North America , just what are you missing ?

What does Toronto do that makes the uninitiated think it is the 'engine of growth'? Hmmm?
Quote:

What proportion of the city's revenues even come from taxes, anyway?

Property tax in Toronto generates about 40% of total revenue. https://www1.toronto.ca/City%20Of%20Toronto/Strategic%20Communications/City%20Budget/2013/Financial%20Condition%20and%20Performance/revenues.pdf

Quote:
The City of Toronto is like a giant sucking sound for money -- It could be a branch plant of Ottawa, taking their transfer payments, and those from Queen's Park, and handing them out to its patronage partners. How much of its population is subsidized by welfare or some form of 'assisted' housing? You have to wonder -- how much of Toronto would be left if the capital went to London, Ont? How much 'economy' is there left?

If you mean sucking sound of money leaving for Queens Park and Ottawa and being spent elsewhere, then yes you are correct.
Quote:

What the city runs itself is deplorable. Need I say 'public housing' again?

Im sorry but you have now jumped the shark from sublime to ridiculous. Public housing while having difficult issues is certainly not horrible , apart from the odd pocket. In the overall scheme of things, all public housing has certain 'issues' in part due to who lives in them.
Quote:
How about the garbage pickup? What do they do that's any good, compared to other cities with the pretensions of Toronto?

Not sure what you are getting to here.
Half the city garbage is privately run. The other half will be soon. City is saving money.
Quote:


And while we're at it, I don't see any facts that are verifiable from you. I see no links, nothing that would support your claims.

Noted and corrected.

I would have thought that anyone living in this Province would easily know that Toronto supplies the wealth of the province. Without it and its money rural Ontarians would be in trouble.
Some I suppose live in some sort of bubble and cant see the forest for the trees.
Quote:

I think you're an asshole because you try to stifle what could be an interesting discussion, and rarely (if ever) make a worthwhile point.
Sigh...
All points one who looks at this issue from inside Ontario should already know about. Perhaps our educators have failed in some regards. No wait , that cannot be true as Ontario ranks 4th in the world on Education. Damn...huh? http://www.conferenceboard.ca/.....ation.aspx

Quote:
..., just a few snide shots, and a vague impulse to defend everything the civil servants of Toronto do, no matter how dumb it is in hindsight.

Plenty of dumb things get done here, as anywhere really. But on the whole.....the above links prove that not to be the case.

Quote:
.. but I can avoid stupid insults.
Sure hope so


I am not going into this deeply, but the gentle reader should understand that government expenditures are a major part of GDP, GDP is not a measure of wealth creation.

Imagine Toronto without the government employees, without the CBC, without the government regulated industries, without the uhiversities and without the financial institutions. And without welfare payments. There is bugger-all wealth creation relative to the size of Toronto. What you have is wealth consumption. Health care certainly has value, but in economic terms, it does not produce wealth. It is a consumption of wealth.

When you talk about 'wealth production, you mean the production of commodities that have a value on a free market. Much of the rest comes from the taxes extorted from everyone in the province, and at best has to do with the regulation of wealth.

If Toronto actually produced this wealth, why can't it build it's own subway rather than forcing the residents of North Bay and Kingston to subsidize it? Why does it need to go beggaring other levels of government?

Toronto consumes a disproportionate amount of the wealth that is created in Ontario and Canada, and that's what appears as the GDP, which our resident troll takes to be wealth creation.

When it comes to wealth creation, Toronto lags, and most of it doesnt happen in Toronto itself. Much of the 6 million people that TC thinks make up Toronto are, in fact, Mississaugians or from Pickering and Oshawa, which is where more of the wealth creation is.
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John Tory to announce tolls on DVP and Gardiner

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