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cosmostein





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:21 am    Post subject: Electoral Reform - One Year Later Reply with quote

Quote:
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau appears to have opened the door to maintaining Canada’s first-past-the-post voting system, despite having promised the 2015 federal election would be the last to use it.

In an interview with Le Devoir Ottawa correspondent Marie Vastel to mark his government’s first year, Trudeau said he no longer sees the same appetite for electoral reform that he did when the Conservatives were in power.

“Under Stephen Harper, there were so many people unhappy with the government and their approach that people were saying ‘it will take electoral reform to no longer have a government we don’t like’. But under the current system, they now have a government they’re more satisfied with and the motivation to change the electoral system is less compelling,” he said.

Trudeau added that different “levels” of change would require different levels of support, perhaps indicating that the Conservatives’ insistence on an electoral reform referendum has had an impact.


https://ipolitics.ca/2016/10/19/trudeau-backing-away-from-voting-system-change/
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocking!

The party that has 54% of the seats with 39% of the popular vote is now reconsidering changing a system that granted them a majority despite the fact that 61% of the population didn't vote for them?

Its very Jean Chrétien-esk;
Campaign on the left then adopt the position he ran against early in his mandate and take full credit for it.

I don't think that the Prime Minister is in any rush to have to make deals with the Green Party, NDP or BQ during his next mandate, especially after a year of being able to pass whatever he wants without obstruction, something he would be unable to do with most systems being proposed.

Cheers to you Justin!
Bugs





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, the Liberals have the "winner's advantage" and got more seats than they got a percentage of the vote. So why would they oppose the 'leverage' in the existing system? To get permanent power, that's why!

60% of this country votes 'left', and a third of it votes 'right'. If the new system comes in, it will take a crisis to get the left coalition out of power. That's part of the reason that the EU is to messed up that nations will pay the economic costs to get out. PR makes it impossible to change governments in the way we change governments. It just changes the chairs around the cabinet table, with maybe one or two new faces when the people get rebellious.

This is another one of those things that you can't compromise on. It's also a good place to invoke the principle that the burden of proof rests on those who want the innovation. How will a new voting system make things better?
Bugs





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the first positive thing I have seen come our of the caucus this year.

Quote:
Conservative letter to electors claims Liberal scheme to rig next election

By TIM NAUMETZ
PUBLISHED : Wednesday, Oct. 19, 2016 12:00 AM

A House of Commons mail-out to electors from an unknown number of Conservative MPs alleges a government plan to “rig” the next federal election by forcing through a new voting system that will favour the Liberal Party.

“The Liberal Plan to Rig the 2019 Election And How You Can Stop It,” screams the mail-out in capital letters across the top of its first page.

Mail-outs, also known as “householders,” are subsidized by the Commons and available to all MPs as a way of communicating with constituents and conducting surveys.

The letter, a copy of which was obtained by The Hill Times, guides recipients to Parliament’s website, and urges them to “demand” a referendum by signing an electronic petition sponsored by Conservative MP Scott Reid.

Constituents can also snip off the bottom third of the mail out, and mark in either support or opposition to a national referendum on any changes to the electoral system, the same choices that were offered in a vote Conservative MPs also held through householder mail-outs as part of the party’s campaign for a referendum before a new electoral law is passed by Parliament.

The strident language in the petition householder is reminiscent of U.S. Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump’s recent allegations his opponents have already “rigged” the election to be held Nov. 8, but also reflects similar language the Conservative Party used in an earlier fundraising email this past summer.

A spokesperson for Conservative Interim Leader Rona Ambrose (Sturgeon River-Parkland, Alta.) said Tuesday he was not immediately aware when MP offices distributed the householder alleging Liberal plans to rig the federal election scheduled for Oct. 21, 2019, or how many were distributed.
http://www.hilltimes.com/2016/.....tion/84673


When the media squeal "unfair" and write up political circulars sent out by MPs as if it were pornography, where even reading the handout makes you a sinner ... that's when you know you're on to something. Just sayin ...

If the Liberals get to say the present system is rigged, then surely we can examine their proposals against the same standards? Or are we looking for a compromise?
RCO





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Electoral Reform - One Year Later Reply with quote

cosmostein wrote:
Quote:
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau appears to have opened the door to maintaining Canada’s first-past-the-post voting system, despite having promised the 2015 federal election would be the last to use it.

In an interview with Le Devoir Ottawa correspondent Marie Vastel to mark his government’s first year, Trudeau said he no longer sees the same appetite for electoral reform that he did when the Conservatives were in power.

“Under Stephen Harper, there were so many people unhappy with the government and their approach that people were saying ‘it will take electoral reform to no longer have a government we don’t like’. But under the current system, they now have a government they’re more satisfied with and the motivation to change the electoral system is less compelling,” he said.

Trudeau added that different “levels” of change would require different levels of support, perhaps indicating that the Conservatives’ insistence on an electoral reform referendum has had an impact.


https://ipolitics.ca/2016/10/19/trudeau-backing-away-from-voting-system-change/


the article is somewhat vague as to there actual plans , even during the election when they campaigned on changes to voting system . they were careful to never actually say what those changes would be ?

this article is typical trudeau , a lot of talk about nothing and no real specifics . its still unclear what the liberals plans on this file are , its a mystery even to those who follow Ottawa closely
RCO





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

( does seem to indicate the only reason liberals pushed electoral reform was cause harper won a majority and that angered the left . now that they are in power with a similar majority the need isn't there to change the system , I'm still not convinced the whole idea is dead yet )


PM backs away from electoral reform pledge

Justin Trudeau election anniversary
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau works the phones at Liberal headquarters in Ottawa,

Wednesday Oct. 19, 2016. (Adrian Wyld / THE CANADIAN PRESS)


Laura Payton, Ottawa News Bureau Online Producer

@laura_payton
.
Published Wednesday, October 19, 2016 2:23PM EDT


Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is suggesting electoral reform might not happen after all, despite an election promise that last year's vote would be the last one under the existing system.

And he also suggested there's less need for electoral reform now that the Conservatives are out of power.

Trudeau made the comments in an interview with Quebec newspaper Le Devoir. Speaking in French, he said the Liberal government will only change the first-past-the-post system if Canadians are open to it.



"We're not going to prejudge that it's necessary," Trudeau told Le Devoir.

The prime minister suggested Canadians are happier with the existing system now that Stephen Harper is out of office.

"With the current system, they now have a government with which they're happier. And the need to change the electoral system is less compelling," Trudeau said.

The degree of support needed for electoral change, he added, depends on the size of the change.

"Less support and a small change, that would maybe be acceptable," Trudeau said. "A bigger change, that would take more support."

'A lot of frustration'

Trudeau and Democratic Institutions Minister Maryam Monsef have talked about wanting broad support before going ahead with electoral reform. The question for the government, Trudeau admitted, is what constitutes broad public support.

The government set up a special committee last spring to study electoral reform options, listening to expert witnesses and hearing from Canadians. Liberal officials say the committee heard a range of views during a series of cross-country committee meetings and townhall events.

Francis Scarpaleggia, the Liberal MP who chairs the electoral reform committee, said it's a complex issue, with supporters of change proposing several different systems with a number of variations, and that the MPs are going to continue to do their work.

"[Trudeau is] going to take input from the committee, he's going to take input from the minister, he's going to consider what Canadians want, and that will influence the way he approaches this issue," Scarpaleggia said on the way out of the Liberal caucus meeting Wednesday morning.

"He understood that there's a lot of frustration in the country. Many people feel that their votes don't count," he said.

Scarpaleggia says he hopes the committee can reach consensus on some core issues.

"There's a degree of civility and collegiality that I think is exemplary," he said. "There's enough goodwill there that I'm hoping that we're going to get a consensus."

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics.....670210f9e8
Bugs





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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are the Conservatives compromising with another hoax?

Wouldn't a good idea to identify where voting system changes stands on a list of what is wrong with this country's politics? Does anyone want it? Is there any reason to believe that there is a demand in the country for proportional representation?

This is an attempt to sandbag Canadians. They did not campaign on the issue, it was not debated, it was just another feckless comment from what was then the leader of the third party. The record shows that as Canadians learn more about any particular new system they propose, they dislike the more. That's why they are determined to prevent any referendum on the subject

I think they see the resistance rising, and they are using their accomplices in the media to lull the people.

But if Conservatives compromise on this issue, what's the point of having them?
RCO





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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
Are the Conservatives compromising with another hoax?

Wouldn't a good idea to identify where voting system changes stands on a list of what is wrong with this country's politics? Does anyone want it? Is there any reason to believe that there is a demand in the country for proportional representation?

This is an attempt to sandbag Canadians. They did not campaign on the issue, it was not debated, it was just another feckless comment from what was then the leader of the third party. The record shows that as Canadians learn more about any particular new system they propose, they dislike the more. That's why they are determined to prevent any referendum on the subject

I think they see the resistance rising, and they are using their accomplices in the media to lull the people.

But if Conservatives compromise on this issue, what's the point of having them?


the conservatives problem is the liberals have never came out solidly in favour of a specific new system so its hard to oppose something when we don't even know what there suggesting to change election system with ?

the conservatives have been solid in there demand that it must be decided by voters in a referendum any major changes or a new system , it can't just be done by a committee or government with a majority
Bugs





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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doesn't it seem to be a good idea to identify the problems with the present system first?

If the flaw with the present system is that political preferences aren't distributing themselves evenly across the country, then wouldn't it be wiser to start transferring population from Alberta to Quebec etc. But we're not going to do that.

Or maybe, if a person votes for a losing candidate, by what logic does that mean his/her vote was "wasted"?

How can overruling the voters' choice in a riding help to make our institutions more democratic?

These are the questions the Conservatives ought to be putting in the air right now. We're not dealing with towering intellects here -- just lawyers and the like. They won't be able to answer these questions. Remember, even TC thinks PR is something he doesn't want to defend. None of the rest of them can either.
RCO





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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

( trudeau says he still wants to change the voting system , just doesn't say to what system instead ? )


After seeding doubt, Trudeau reaffirms ‘deep’ commitment to change voting system


By The Canadian Press — Oct 20 2016


BRAMPTON, Ont. — Justin Trudeau says he remains "deeply committed" to reforming Canada's voting system.

The prime minister is reaffirming his commitment one day after he appeared to be laying the groundwork for reneging on his promise that the 2015 federal election would be the last conducted under first-past-the-post.

Trudeau says he looks forward to the recommendations of a special all-party committee that has been exploring alternatives to the existing voting system.

The committee is to report by Dec. 1.

On Wednesday, Trudeau told Montreal's Le Devoir newspaper that electoral reform will require "substantial" support.

At the same time, however, he mused that the public clamour for reform has subsided since the Liberals defeated Stephen Harper's Conservatives one year ago.

The Canadian Press


http://www.nationalnewswatch.c.....AkkuUn2Zjp
RCO





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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trudeau’s electoral reform: They love me not, they love me


Bonokoski 2016
By Mark Bonokoski, Postmedia Network
First posted: Thursday, October 20, 2016 05:18 PM EDT | Updated: Thursday, October 20, 2016 05:38 PM EDT

OTTAWA — Sometimes our prime minister can be so precious that his words can suck the air out of a room.

It is breathtaking.

As long as Justin Trudeau owns the ball, and he can take that ball home whenever he desires, then it would appear everything in Trudeauland is just hunky-dory.

It is all about him, after all.

Earlier this week, in an interview in Le Devoir, Trudeau began to back away from his big electoral promise to end Canada’s first-past-the-post voting system that has served us well for almost 150 years.

Governments came and went, the Liberals less than others, but our democracy is working, and is far from being ineffective.

What was particularly galling about Trudeau’s retreat from the kind of electoral reform that had him hogging the headlines for so long was this quote from him as he tried to explain his change of heart.

“Under Stephen Harper, there were so many people unhappy with the government that people were saying, ‘It will take electoral reform to no longer have a government we don’t like,’” said Trudeau.

“But under the current system, they now have a government they’re more satisfied with, and the motivation to change the electoral system is less compelling.”

One can almost picture Trudeau sitting in a meadow picking petals off a daisy.

“They love me, they love me not, they love me.”

So that’s it then, isn’t it? What Trudeau is basically saying now is that Canadians didn’t like the Harperites, and so he had to invent a way to keep their ilk out of government by rigging the system against them, and then use it as a major campaign plank.

Let’s be clear, however. There was nothing vague in the Liberals’ intentions when it came to electoral reform.

Its platform was direct and to the point.

“We are committed to ensuring 2015 will be the last federal election conducted under the first-past-the-post voting system,” the platform statement reads.

“Within 18 months of forming government, we will introduce legislation to enact electoral reform.”

But now that the 2015 election is said and done, and that people LOVE him, Trudeau suddenly sees no sense in upsetting the political cart that hauled him not only to victory, but to a majority.

Suddenly the system ain’t so broke.

This is classic Trudeau, and Canadians should be outraged, not so much because Trudeau is backing away from electoral reform but because he gamed them.

It so incensed NDP elder statesman Ed Broadbent, his digital dexterity belying his 80 years of age, that he rattled off a 21-part Twitter rant against Trudeau, railing against his backing down, and reminding him of his commitment to toss the first-past-the-post voting system into the recycling bin.

Following their election, the Liberals created an all-party committee to study the options for electoral reform, including ranked ballots, proportional representation, and even mandatory voting.

The committee is supposed to table its report by Dec. 1.

Perhaps it will come wrapped in a daisy chain.

http://www.torontosun.com/2016.....ey-love-me
RCO





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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Electoral reform increasingly seems like a bad idea


anthony furey
By Anthony Furey, Postmedia Network
First posted: Saturday, September 24, 2016 06:04 PM EDT | Updated: Saturday, September 24, 2016 06:14 PM EDT




A few days ago I attended, against my better judgment, an electoral reform committee public hearing in downtown Toronto.

Here are some observations, and other reasons to fret for the future of humanity, in no particular order:

A self-described environmentalist from the riding of Toronto-Centre has serious reservations about holding a referendum on reform. She is “fairly political engaged,” she explains.

However, there are others who aren’t as engaged as her and thus may make poor decisions when faced with the referendum question due to their “lack of understanding.”

It’s like a headline from The Onion: “Local genius finds democracy flawed when masses disagree with her.”

At one point a self-identified Green Party member took to the mic to say “my soul is being destroyed by the current system.”

A woman later got up to simply state how lucky we are to live in Canada - true - and then almost broke down in tears.

Another man got up to say that our current electoral system is “despicable.”

Electoral reform advocates have the unique distinction of managing to simultaneously be both drama queens and insufferable bores.

A number of pro-reform speakers argued we need “fairness” in our electoral system and that voting has to be “fair.” I still have no clue what in the hell they were going on about and how exactly the current first-past-the-post system is unfair. Perhaps they mean it’s unfair that the party of their choice has never governed. Or that the party of their choice has not exclusively governed. Sorry folks, but that’s just what you get when living in a diverse society.

Several white people got up to decry without elaboration that the current system discriminates against ethnic minorities.

Meanwhile, several ethnic minorities got up and made detailed and intelligent points while having the good manners to not gratuitously reference anyone’s skin colour, least of all their own.

I’m aware that I’m risking a human rights complaint by writing this, but why are white do-gooders so much more annoying and patronizing than do-gooders of any other background?

A man made an interesting point that if extending the vote to women 100 years ago had been put to a referendum instead of via legislation it would have been rejected. Perhaps. I haven’t seen any data on this. However it has little bearing on current reform. Everyone can vote under the current system.

It remains unclear to me what foul deeds the 12 MPs appointed to the panel committed to warrant such punishment. Perhaps a new political maxim is in order? “Keep your friends close and keep your enemies on public consultation committees.”

I used to be strongly in favour of public consultations. But the more I witness both the “public” part and the “consultation” part in action, I’m decidedly less so.

To conclude: If the government is still dead set on reform then, yes, it should certainly hold a referendum. The few people who spoke in favour of one received little support and were stared down by fellow audience members.

But who should the committee serve? A room that, at least in this case, was populated by self-declared Green Party members, people wearing Leadnow activist T-shirts and other organized special interests?

Opinion polls have consistently shown a majority of Canadians want a referendum.

Either way, to argue for or against a referendum is still putting the cart before the horse. The bigger unaddressed issue is why we’re even debating fixing something that’s yet to be proven broken.

I’d like to see a pollster go back to basics and simply ask Canadians if they give a damn about this conversation in the first place or if they agree that the current system is in fact “despicable.”

Obsessive progressives have actually been kicking about the topic for well over a decade now and despite their best efforts few people care about what they’re saying.

For most well-adjusted people, that would be what we call a hint.

But the gears of perpetual progressives, once set in motion, have no moderating mechanism.

Rather than now trying to foist change upon a country that has no interest in it, they should admit defeat and redirect their efforts to addressing issues that actually matter.

Wishful thinking?

http://www.torontosun.com/2016.....a-bad-idea
Bugs





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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As people learn more about PR, they like it less and less.

If there was any leadership on the issue, the Liberals would be quietly burying the issue while they wait for another opportunity to fool the people.
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RCO wrote:


A self-described environmentalist from the riding of Toronto-Centre has serious reservations about holding a referendum on reform. She is “fairly political engaged,” she explains.

However, there are others who aren’t as engaged as her and thus may make poor decisions when faced with the referendum question due to their “lack of understanding.”

It’s like a headline from The Onion: “Local genius finds democracy flawed when masses disagree with her.”



I absolutely laughed out loud when I read the above.
RCO





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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
As people learn more about PR, they like it less and less.

If there was any leadership on the issue, the Liberals would be quietly burying the issue while they wait for another opportunity to fool the people.



there has been past votes on PR in Canada , I believe PEI , Ontario and BC held votes and each time it was rejected . although PEI is having another vote this year on various options and its unclear what they will choose


I'm not convinced its really as popular as they claim , the people pushing it are from mostly the greens and ndp and they only get maybe 5% and 10% of the vote each in a lot of the ridings ,
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Electoral Reform - One Year Later

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