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RCO





Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 6707
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votes: 3
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 5:45 pm    Post subject: Ont liberals want to move province away from natural gas ? Reply with quote

( is this not the dumbest idea ever ? according to article 76 % of homes in Ontario heat with natural gas and they want none of them to use it by 2030 ? how is that even possible , and why not use the natural gas that is already here and comes from west thru a major pipeline ? this is literally the dumbest idea ever ? has a single homeowner even been consulted ? if this isn't a major reason to fire wynne I don't know what is )


Ontario Liberals want to eliminate reliance on natural gas: Report


Local
Politics


by News Staff
Posted May 17, 2016 2:29 pm EDT




Premier Kathleen Wynne talks about Ontario's incentives to people who buy electric cars, Feb. 10, 2016. CITYNEWS/George Joseph



Kathleen Wynne’s Liberal government may be making a big push to eliminate the province’s reliance upon natural gas.

According to a confidential document obtained by the Globe and Mail, the government plans to spend more the $7-billion on a climate change plan that will make Ontario more environmentally friendly.

The plan reportedly includes creating financial incentives to move buildings off of natural gas and into green-friendly energy sources, requiring all homes and small buildings to be heated without using fossil fuels by 2030. That will reportedly expand to all buildings before 2050.

Natural gas currently provides 76 per cent of heating across the province.


The Liberals will also push forward with their drive to put more electric cars on the road.

The climate change plan will reportedly include $285-million for electric vehicle incentives.


http://www.680news.com/2016/05.....as-report/
RCO





Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 6707
Reputation: 239.3
votes: 3
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ontario's move away from natural gas would hit Alberta producers

10% of Alberta's natural gas production flows to Ontario

By Tracy Johnson, CBC News Posted: May 18, 2016 7:00 AM MT| Last Updated: May 18, 2016 10:25 AM MT

Ontario Minister of Environment and Climate Change Glen Murray released a climate change discussion paper in Toronto on February 2015. Ontario's plans to reduce its reliance on fossil fuels, including natural gas, would be a blow to natural gas producers in Alberta.

■Ontario climate change plan could spike hydro, natural gas rates
■Ontario government not denying report on sweeping climate change plan
■B.C. LNG: First Nations appeal to UN to help stop Petronas project
■Canadian Natural Resources reports 1st-quarter loss but tops expectations
■TransCanada finds warmer welcome in Mexico for pipeline business



At first, it feels like another nail in the coffin for Alberta natural gas producers. Ontario, with its pending climate change plan, looks set to turn away from natural gas for home heating.


'Alberta is already under siege from a natural disaster, and this is threatening an unnatural disaster to an already struggling natural gas sector.'

- Judith Dwarkin, RS Energy Group


Ontario is still working on the plan, but in a leak of the draft version obtained by the Globe and Mail, the province wants to phase out natural gas for residential heating in favour of electric and geothermal sources.

Aside from what this could mean for heating bills in Ontario, it would be a blow to natural gas producers in Alberta.

In Ontario, 76 per cent of homes use gas for heat, and producers in Western Canada are suffering from persistently low prices and more competition from U.S. shale gas producers.

How much natural gas does Ontario use?

According to Statistics Canada, in 2013, the average Ontario household used 91 gigajoules of natural gas in a year.
■Ontario climate change plan could spike hydro, natural gas rates
■Ontario government not denying report on sweeping climate change plan

Blake Shaffer, an energy researcher at the University of Calgary, did the rough math, assuming most of that natural gas use was for heating, and figured that Ontario uses roughly one billion cubic feet of natural gas a day to heat residences.

"Coincidentally," said Shaffer, "that's roughly what's still flowing on the TransCanada mainline from Alberta to Ontario."

Alberta has lost market share in Ontario to U.S. producers in the northern states, who have increased production of shale gas. While the gas is as inexpensive in Alberta as it is in Pennsylvania, the shipping costs are higher from the west.

"They've basically pushed out our gas," said Shaffer. "And if this one billion drop in demand was there, we're the marginal supplier, so you can imagine it's threatening what remains of the great national unifier of west to east gas flow."

Ontario's natural gas demand by region
Ontario sources more than half of its natural gas from Alberta, although that amount is declining. (Ontario Energy Board/Navigant)

10% of Alberta's production shipped to Ontario





Alberta produces approximately 10 billion cubic feet of natural gas a day, half of which it uses in the province for home and commercial heating, as well as industrial use in the oilsands and elsewhere, and to generate power.
■Canadian LNG prospects keep getting worse as prices tank and red tape delays projects
■Natural gas prices eyeing multi-decade lows

If Ontario is receiving a billion cubic feet a day from Alberta on TransCanada's main pipeline, that's a tenth of the province's production. Not all of that is at risk, of course, since Ontario's industries use more gas than homeowners do. But it does mean Alberta needs to find new markets.

"Losing more of Eastern Canada as a market would be very problematic, if another outlet for selling natural gas isn't opened up," said Judith Dwarkin, an energy economist with RS Energy Group.

The easiest market for Alberta would be itself, as the province shifts from coal-fired power plants to natural gas and renewable energy.

"If we were to replace all 6,000 megawatts of coal with gas and leave all the growth to be met by renewables, 6,000 megawatts of gas plants is just under a billion cubic feet a day," said Shaffer.

Oilpatch historian David Finch thinks there will be a future for natural gas, even if Ontario phases out its use in homes.

"The history of fuels is that they get repurposed and used in a different way."

An 'unnatural disaster' for Alberta

Ontario Environment Minister Glen Murray said the province is not banning natural gas, which would continue to play a critical role in the province's energy mix.

Dwarkin hopes that is the case.

"Alberta is already under siege from a natural disaster and this is threatening an unnatural disaster to an already struggling natural gas sector."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/.....-1.3586216
RCO





Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 6707
Reputation: 239.3
votes: 3
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

( I don't even know what else to say about this plan other than its the dumbest idea ever to come out of queens park , someone please give these idiots a reality check )



Union Gas surprised by plan; concerned about negative impact it will have




By Ellwood Shreve, Chatham Daily News

Monday, May 16, 2016 5:42:39 EDT PM

Union Gas officials were surprised that a leaked report on the Ontario government's climate change action plan calls for phasing out the use of natural gas heat and replacing it with electric heat, according to a story in the Globe and Mail on Monday May 16, 2016. (Vicki Gough/Chatham Daily News/Postmedia Network)




Union Gas knew the Ontario Liberal government was working on a climate change action plan, but the Chatham-based natural gas utility wasn't expecting to potentially take such a huge hit from it.

A story in Monday's Globe and Mail, based on a leaked climate change plan, outlines how the province intends to spend $7 billion over the next four years to drastically reduce Ontario's carbon footprint.

According to the Globe and Mail report, the plan calls for phasing out the use of natural gas for heating and providing incentives for people to purchase electric vehicles.

“We are aware that the climate change action plan is in the works,” Andrea Stass, manager, external communications and media relations, adding the company hasn't seen any of the details.

“In terms of eliminating natural gas as a source of heat for homes and businesses that's a surprise to us,” she added.

Stass said there are some elements that are reported in the plan, which Union Gas has been advocating for, including using liquified natural gas to replace diesel fuel for the heavy transportation industry.

“Natural gas has less carbon, so that's a way for the government to achieve their carbon reduction targets, and do it in an affordable and, we think, a realistic way,” she said.

However, Stass said nearly 80 per cent of homeowners and businesses choose to use natural gas, because it is an affordable and reliable source of heat.

“We're concerned that essentially mandating natural gas out of existence in homes and businesses will be very disruptive and costly for consumers,” she said, adding electric heat is six times more expensive.

Lambton-Kent-Middlesex MPP Monte McNaughton said, “we know that it's going to cost each household $3,000 more each year to switch from natural gas to electricity.”

With nearly 80 per cent of homes and businesses using natural gas, he accuses the government of forcing its agenda that includes banning the use of natural gas in new home construction.

McNaughton said this move “will be devastating to our economy.

“This is completely contrary to what the people in the province want,” he added.

Chatham-Kent-Essex MPP Rick Nicholls said, “locally, Union Gas employs 850 people, but across Ontario they employee thousands.

“If the Liberal government abandons natural gas, the loss of jobs as well as economic security in our entire region and the province as a whole would be unimaginable,” he added.

Stass said to put this issue in perspective, Ontario households and small businesses are responsible for a very small percentage of Ontario’s greenhouse gas emissions, and yet the climate change action plan unfairly hits them with the majority of the cost for cap-and-trade.

She added, as proposed, the cap-and-trade program will place Ontario businesses at a competitive disadvantage relative to surrounding jurisdictions with whom Ontario competes – all of which are embracing affordable natural gas as a competitive advantage.

“Businesses already hurting from higher electricity prices will choose to relocate away from Ontario, and Ontario residents and consumers will again suffer the loss of jobs and related income,” Stass said.

Nicholls said he received calls and e-mails on Monday from many constituents outraged over the potential damage this plan could have on their communities.

“The No. 1 complaint I hear in both (constituency) offices is that electricity rates are out of control, but now the government wants to force people to use electric heat? That doesn't make sense to me,” he said.

McNaughton said the Liberal government is out of touch, citing the fact that in recent years it has built 17 gas-fired generating stations in the province of Ontario.

“It's a government forcing an agenda on the people of Ontario without considering the cost implications on the entire economy,” the MPP said. “I was shocked and still in disbelief after hearing the news.”

He said the political reality is the Liberal cabinet is divided on this matter, noting at least one Ontario cabinet minister leaked this information to the Globe and Mail.

McNaughton is also concerned about the impact of the plan on Ontario's $16-billion automotive industry, noting if the government handcuffs the auto sector, businesses will simply choose to uproot their plants to lower cost, business-friendly jurisdictions in the U.S. and Mexico.

He said the Liberal government has no economic plan for jobs and routinely makes these kinds of decisions “without thinking about the real-life implications for families.”

Nicholls said the agriculture industry is also confused about this plan.

“For years they have been working with the government to expand natural gas to rural Ontario, and now they're being told the Liberals want to abandon natural gas?” he said.


http://www.chathamdailynews.ca.....-will-have
RCO





Joined: 02 Mar 2009
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Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is by far one of the worst if not the worst idea's I have ever seen come out of queen's park .
I personally can't even believe its being considered , its that bad for the province . the plan would be an economic disaster for home owners and businesses who use natural gas to heat buildings . its the most commonly used heating source in the province , according to some articles 75% of homes use it , likely higher in suburban areas around Toronto and Ottawa . a lot of people in northern Ontario and rural areas still use wood to heat .

like we could take all the transport trucks off the roads and cut emissions that way but such a plan would be an economic disaster for the province . I'd say this plan is about the same , we could eliminate natural gas but the result would be such a complete disaster it wouldn't be worth the small amount of emissions saved

if this is all wynne has left for ideas she should just retire and save Ontario the misery of putting up with this nonsense .
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To think we felt that the canceled power plants were a waste of money;

Ontario has build the overwhelming majority of its Natural Gas plants under the Liberal Government since 2003

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generating_stations_in_Ontario

With nearly a half dozen still under construction,

Yet now Natural Gas is bad?
RCO





Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 6707
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votes: 3
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cosmostein wrote:
To think we felt that the canceled power plants were a waste of money;

Ontario has build the overwhelming majority of its Natural Gas plants under the Liberal Government since 2003

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generating_stations_in_Ontario

With nearly a half dozen still under construction,

Yet now Natural Gas is bad?


I know for a fact natural gas usage has been booming in Ontario , there is a warehouse and lot down the road from me for Aecon utilies ( one of Ontario's largest construction companies ) and the building and trucks there are all for residential natural gas hook up's , they drive all around this area and hook up homes to the natural gas lines . the demand has been increasing for years and its very popular choice to heat homes with .
to tell all these people they shouldn't be using it and claim its bad for environment is pure nonsense , Ontario is so small when compared to entire world , the amount of gases released by residential natural gas use is tiny compared to countries like US and china's emissions
this is by far the dumbest idea Ontario liberals have put forward , if its Glen Murray's idea he deserves to be fired for stupidity
Bugs





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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are there environmental reasons behind this? What's the gain? I just bought a new gas furnace, and got a $250 bonus from Ontario Hydro for doing it. Talk about changing policy directions in mid-stream!

My furnace is supposedly 98% efficient, and it's 'chimney' is a three inch plastic pipe. How can replacing natural gas with electricity be good for the environment?
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
How can replacing natural gas with electricity be good for the environment?


The question I have is;

How can replacing natural gas with electricity largely generated by natural gas power plants be good for the environment?
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Ont liberals want to move province away from natural gas ?

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