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Alan A.





Joined: 31 Jul 2009
Posts: 237
Reputation: 22.4Reputation: 22.4
votes: 4
Location: Western Canada

PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Habsrwfan wrote:
I'd like to know why you seem to think that a person's place of birth should determine what rights they have. Is a Chinese person of less worth than a Canadian or an American? Why should a Chinese person not enjoy the basic rights that we do?


Not a person's place of birth but where they actually live, and where in fact they have for several millennia. YOU seem to know better than them and decide what is good for them and what is not, and what rights they SHOULD have. I know a few Chinese-Canadian friends who tell me that our obsession with their human rights is misguided because we don't really know much about them. That obsession is based on OUR OWN values and culture. Are the Chinese asking for our help into changing their world? No. Then why don't we mind our own darn business? That global village bullshit (modeled on western standards of course) is a liberal pipe dream that quite frankly is one of my pet peeves.
beaver





Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 246
Reputation: 81Reputation: 81

PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Habsrwfan, this concept of "inalienable human rights" is very individualistic and therefore foreign to a collectivist culture like China (I can go on and on about individualism vs. collectivism and culture differences but I won't). While I believe in improved human rights for China, as I have said before, it will take time (although, Chinese society is changing very quickly). However, parading as Uncle Sam and demanding "inalienable human rights" for China is not an effective strategy. In your argument, you showed concern for the wellbeing of the Chinese. That's great. But you offered no realistic step to realistically improve things there.
Habsrwfan





Joined: 04 Oct 2008
Posts: 688
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votes: 5

PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beaver wrote:
Habsrwfan, this concept of "inalienable human rights" is very individualistic and therefore foreign to a collectivist culture like China (I can go on and on about individualism vs. collectivism and culture differences but I won't). While I believe in improved human rights for China, as I have said before, it will take time. However, parading as Uncle Sam and demanding "inalienable human rights" for China is not an effective strategy. In your argument, you showed concern for the wellbeing of the Chinese. That's great. But you offered no realistic step to realistically improve things there.


Japan also has a collectivist culture, but they've largely (if not entirely) recognized the same basic human rights that the rest of the 1st world has. Basic human rights are not incompatible with a collectivist culture.

Also, even the United Nations has come out with an Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The reason why I cited the forefathers of America, and not the UN, is because I think that the UN might go a bit too far, actually. What the UN calls for is a liberal pipe dream, in fairness to Alan.

However, the three specific freedoms I mentioned, as well as perhaps a few others, are very basic freedoms, that are compatible with any reasonably developed culture, as the Japanese have demonstrated.


The way to realistically improve things in China is to encourage China to draft a basic constitution (or at least clear legislation) recognizing basic rights for its citizens, which would put China more in tune with the other great powers of the planet, frankly. I think that this is something which, with careful and gradual diplomacy, you might be able to persuade the current Chinese government to do. As the Beijing Olympics show, China does have a great deal of national pride and wants to be viewed in a positive light on the world stage. You could perhaps persuade them that a good way to help accomplish this is by them shifting just a little bit to be more in tune with the rest of the world. And, a basic, "no frills" Constitution would accomplish that.

Obviously, the ruling party of China isn't going to want democracy because it might lead to them being voted out of office. So, the first step is to empower the people of China to voice political opinions without fear of imprisonment or interrogation for doing so, and also to empower the people of China to legally organize into various associations that could work as an activist group to change China from within.

A basic constitution would achieve this.

Then, over time, the Chinese people themselves would help to create a democracy of China, for China, made in China.
Jiang





Joined: 16 Jan 2011
Posts: 1


PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:47 pm    Post subject: Before you make any plan.. Reply with quote

Habsrwfan wrote:


The way to realistically improve things in China is to encourage China to draft a basic constitution (or at least clear legislation) recognizing basic rights for its citizens, which would put China more in tune with the other great powers of the planet, frankly. I think that this is something which, with careful and gradual diplomacy, you might be able to persuade the current Chinese government to do. As the Beijing Olympics show, China does have a great deal of national pride and wants to be viewed in a positive light on the world stage. You could perhaps persuade them that a good way to help accomplish this is by them shifting just a little bit to be more in tune with the rest of the world. And, a basic, "no frills" Constitution would accomplish that.

Obviously, the ruling party of China isn't going to want democracy because it might lead to them being voted out of office. So, the first step is to empower the people of China to voice political opinions without fear of imprisonment or interrogation for doing so, and also to empower the people of China to legally organize into various associations that could work as an activist group to change China from within.

A basic constitution would achieve this.

Then, over time, the Chinese people themselves would help to create a democracy of China, for China, made in China.


thanks for the recommendation your making, however you seem to be jumping too fast, WE must help each other learn about ourselves first before any citizens of the nation make any serious political recommendation for other nation(s). Do we really really know about "them" or are you still too busy making your monumental recommendation BECAUSE "ours" are rooted in the fundamental principle..or that it is GOOD for the rest of humanity.
I believe it would be prudent approach to first know your minority people who resides in your country..If we are making recommendation to China, then we should learn more about our fellow Chinese Canadian minority citizens/immigrants/FOB/etc

The reason why I insist on doing this is because, Asian in general are the LEAST understood citizens of Canada. Perhaps, we tend to impose preconceived notion about them. If we continue to create a wall, are we entitled to provide political recommendation to them ?. We really must know our neighbor well before we
embark on a big project such as recommending importation of western version of democracy to China or to Iran. Start something small first.
You may argue that although Canadian human rights is not perfect or discrimination is nonexistent but not substantial in relative to China or to Iran so we are in a better position to offer recommendation to them.
However, Why does Chinese Canadians are still the least understood citizen of Canada ?
Does Chinese Canadians (Immigrant/CBC(Canadian born Chinese) think exactly like us, same cognitive style ?
what are the top ten things we can definitely for sure know about Chinese Canadians
and are those findings have any similarity with the mainland Chinese cognitive pattern, their value system, mental constitution..etc
Why does Chinese Canadians always stick to their own kind and should we as Canadians discriminate them for that inappropriate behavior? how does Chinese Canadians should exactly behave in Canadian society aside from following laws. It seems to me that many have no interest in these particular group of people and ofcourse vice versa. My point is that If human rights record is not perfect, then we all have our own share of duty to rectify this human rights problem, instead of finger pointing each other who is right or wrong. We have our problem at home with racism, discrimination, sexism... just to list a few. It is easier to blame "them" than to accept "them" for what it is. and these are the kind of international society in which we live right now. Can we all not get alone and accept for what it is. Democracy or not.
We can not paint China with only the image of a Chinese student holding up a tank.
I believe once the Chinese Canadian and the rest of Canadian reached certain degree of shared consensus, untill then we might start to know SOMETHING about China as well

Perhaps, living in mainland china and see it to yourself on what is becoming in that country may also seem like a prudent approach.
End of recommendation

Jiang
Edmund Onward James





Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 1317
Reputation: 55
votes: 2

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Views of China with links. The Chicom old guard still keep things in order. Their order.

Reciprocity with China, and other Communist and Totalitarian nations?
http://onwardjames.blogspot.co.....unist.html

NUCLEAR PROLIFERATION BUDDIES: Pakistan, Iran, North Korea, China, A.Q. Khan, Pervez Musharraf, Al Khamenei, Kim Jong-Il, Guo Boxiong...
http://onwardjames.blogspot.co.....istan.html

Boycott products from China. I try.
http://onwardjames.blogspot.co.....i-try.html

Regardless, China still loves Obama...
http://onwardjames.blogspot.co.....obama.html

Morning Bell: Dragon Week
http://blog.heritage.org/2011/.....ing%2BBell

Regardless, America is still a Super Power when it comes to the military. (Even with Obama as Commander-In-Chief.) China is far from being close. People keep thinking that their population is the power. Or they will be like Japan economically before they financially collapsed.
beaver





Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 246
Reputation: 81Reputation: 81

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edmund Onward James wrote:
Views of China with links. The Chicom old guard still keep things in order. Their order.

Reciprocity with China, and other Communist and Totalitarian nations?
http://onwardjames.blogspot.co.....unist.html

NUCLEAR PROLIFERATION BUDDIES: Pakistan, Iran, North Korea, China, A.Q. Khan, Pervez Musharraf, Al Khamenei, Kim Jong-Il, Guo Boxiong...
http://onwardjames.blogspot.co.....istan.html

Boycott products from China. I try.
http://onwardjames.blogspot.co.....i-try.html

Regardless, China still loves Obama...
http://onwardjames.blogspot.co.....obama.html

Morning Bell: Dragon Week
http://blog.heritage.org/2011/.....ing%2BBell

Regardless, America is still a Super Power when it comes to the military. (Even with Obama as Commander-In-Chief.) China is far from being close. People keep thinking that their population is the power. Or they will be like Japan economically before they financially collapsed.


1) I suggest you diversify your reading material beyond the anti-China articles.
2) America will soon no longer be the only superpower in the world. Economically, they have a huge deficit and a shrinking economy. Societally, they are experiencing a breakdown of family and society. Politically, they are faced with a hyperpartisan system stuck in gridlock. I wish the best for the US, but even you can't deny the unprecedented challenges facing America's superpower status today.

P.S. This thread was to create discussion about Christianity in China, not a forum to bash China in general. It would be wise to get over the paranoia and hatred that dominates your worldview.
Edmund Onward James





Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 1317
Reputation: 55
votes: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will defend democracy, human rights and freedom on any thread. Your comment seems to defend the Chinese, their power and growth while demeaning America.

"America will soon no longer be the only superpower in the world. Economically, they have a huge deficit and a shrinking economy. Societally, they are experiencing a breakdown of family and society. Politically, they are faced with a hyperpartisan system stuck in gridlock. I wish the best for the US, but even you can't deny the unprecedented challenges facing America's superpower status today."

And before you can promote Christianity it might be wise to know about the country and where they stand politically. I have read several books, historical and political. Perhaps you ought to fly over there and help the cause of the decent religious people. But I would advise not or you might join Liu Xiaobo.

"P.S. This thread was to create discussion about Christianity in China, not a forum to bash China in general. It would be wise to get over the paranoia and hatred that dominates your worldview."

So what about the "inalienable human rights" that were posted?

"While I believe in improved human rights for China, as I have said before, it will take time (although, Chinese society is changing very quickly). However, parading as Uncle Sam and demanding "inalienable human rights" for China is not an effective strategy."

Parading as Uncle Sam? Demanding? Not an effective strategy?

Obviously you are not pro-America and appreciate their "Exeptionalism". You must think a softer approach will work. A bit naive.

The iron curtain fell down not because of the spread of Christianity. Perhaps, the people had access to what was happening in other parts of the world, maybe via videos, movies, who knows, but I think they wanted freedom to be individualistic.

As long as the Communist party rules the secular country will be controlled.

Regardless, should Christianity, the Judaeo-Christian culture, be allowed to continue in some way, perhaps that would help out the transformation and would be grand. Maybe I'll still be around and be able to post it.
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