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Guelphfirst





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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duck Tory wrote:
What you need to understand GF is Bush,Rumsfeld and others want to change the world,end the cycle of violence and give freedom a chance. Yes i am a foreign policy advocate but that does not make me a ignorant fool as some in my community has said. all the geoncides you have address were due tot he Liberal-Democrat Ignorance that lead to the raise of Al'Qaeda as a group and Kim Junior's rant as a psychopath. the War on Terror has two fronts Iraq and Afganistan as of right now i do not trust a LIBERAL OR A DEMOCRAT'S word since they are so align with appeasers,ignorant narrowminded Peace activist fraudters who have a hidden agenda.




Youíve drawn some parallels that I would disagree with, but thatís neither here nor there.

Correct me if Iím wrong,

We both agree that we need to be more proactive in the world. The difference in our opinions is to what extent we should exercise that power.

Had we attacked the Soviet Union anytime prior to 1990 we all know what the consequences would have been, but it was advocated many, many times. The USSR collapsed for a variety of reasons, mostly economic.

The dictatorships that exist today are in the same boat; they will all collapse eventually because of economics, or be militarily overthrown from internal forces.

Economic power and covert operations are the best tools to creating a more stable world.
Duck Tory





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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that Covert Ops and Economic Power is the best tools but let me remind you that the Soviet Union fell due to internal forces, Also You must remeber during the 1990's{Naive Nineties} Clinton and the Liberal Regime knew there were certain things and did not do anything bout it. I understand you disargee with me but i feel that being proactive is a better way to help those then exploiting their pain for personal gain like George Clooney is doing.
Guelphfirst





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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I donít disagree with the intent, but I donít believe we have the right, duty, obligation to becomeÖwell essentially God to the rest of the world.
Duck Tory





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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are not GOD....... We are witnessing geoncide and human rights abuses that have been a cycle of violence for nearly a century, We need to support those we feel are our allies and spy on those who are our enemies.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duck Tory wrote:
What you need to understand GF is Bush,Rumsfeld and others want to change the world,end the cycle of violence and give freedom a chance. Yes i am a foreign policy advocate but that does not make me a ignorant fool as some in my community has said. all the geoncides you have address were due tot he Liberal-Democrat Ignorance that lead to the raise of Al'Qaeda as a group and Kim Junior's rant as a psychopath. the War on Terror has two fronts Iraq and Afganistan as of right now i do not trust a LIBERAL OR A DEMOCRAT'S word since they are so align with appeasers,ignorant narrowminded Peace activist fraudters who have a hidden agenda.


Well put

Quote:
I donít disagree with the intent, but I donít believe we have the right, duty, obligation to becomeÖwell essentially God to the rest of the world


And no body wants you to be god to the rest of the world but remember that milions of people look at free world (namely Canada, USA, UK...) for support in their struggle to become democratic and free.

Those want your help so why should we deny them that when we can and should assist them.
truth4freedom





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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:58 pm    Post subject: Re: America wanted to fail in Iraq Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
Was a broader war the ultimate goal of the invasion of Iraq? Was America's goal to destabilize the region in order to create an Islamic civil war?



The goal was to fight the islamo fascists on their turf instead of ours, and also ultimately to broaden the war, yes. We had been incapable of internally fighting it because of poor intel, and our inability to infiltrate the dizzying sects of jihadists. We needed to bring it out into the open. The only question I believe, was where to do it. Afghanistan wouldn't allow for the US to smoke out the jihadists en masse like was wanted. Iran was a great choice, but I think they're still viewed as a country that can be toppled from within, and a future ally. Iran is a key to countering Saudi Arabia while still maintaining a relationship with the Saudi's. It's like having another Pakistan, India scenario. Basically we didn't want to destroy their infrastructure if at all possible. Africa is another great location, but it's not in the Middle East which is the primary objective.

I also think that leadership saw the oil for food scam that was out of control and saw that the UN sanctions against Iraq were about to be lifted due to Saddam's blood money running into the UN coffers. No one wanted that to happen because then Saddam would have gone full steam ahead with his weapons programs and become an even greater threat. They figured if they really can't control him and he'd already defeated their sanctions, then what to do but take him out.

I don't think a civil war was the ultimate goal. I don't think the complexities of the Shiite, Sunni war was even considered as a major factor. Bush said from the beginning that this was not going to be over quickly and that we had better expect a long war. I think that was because he anticipated a backlash from the islamo fascists in general, not getting in the middle of a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Whatever the case, I think at the time we made the right decision to topple Saddam with the information available. Bush and co never went in solely because of WMD, nor was that even a major talking point of his, it has been blown out of proportion by the media. We had to go fight the islamo fascists somewhere and Iraq got to be it. No matter where we would have set up the fight it would have turned into the mess we have now.

There's really only two sides to this war. Either you're for fighting the islamo fascists, and will do whatever it takes to win. Or, you're ready to be a dhimmi.
Craig
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:37 pm    Post subject: Re: America wanted to fail in Iraq Reply with quote

truth4freedom wrote:
The goal was to fight the islamo fascists on their turf instead of ours, and also ultimately to broaden the war, yes.


Yes, I believe that the fighting in Iraq has kept the war away from American soil. But the powers that be (NSA, CIA, etc.) must have known that true and stable democracy was not possible in Iraq. The short term goal was to keep the fight over there instead of on American soil. But the long term goal was to destabilize the region and engulf Islam in a civil war. Let's face it, there is loads of oil in Iraq and it is stategically located. It will be a long and bitter fight between rival factions once America leaves.
truth4freedom





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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:49 pm    Post subject: Re: America wanted to fail in Iraq Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
Yes, I believe that the fighting in Iraq has kept the war away from American soil. But the powers that be (NSA, CIA, etc.) must have known that true and stable democracy was not possible in Iraq. The short term goal was to keep the fight over there instead of on American soil. But the long term goal was to destabilize the region and engulf Islam in a civil war. Let's face it, there is loads of oil in Iraq and it is stategically located. It will be a long and bitter fight between rival factions once America leaves.



I think that it is a possibility. They do get paid to do that kind of thing, but I haven't seriously considered it yet.

As far as oil is concerned, I don't believe that's an issue. If anyone cut us off at this point we may just go in and take the stuff. It's not the 70's anymore.

Strategically, we would have been better off to build a base in Kurdistan and let Saddam and the mullah's imaginations run wild with what we might do. Keep them so paranoid that they wouldn't ever really get around to posing a serious threat.

The other thought I have is that this whole war is just a distraction by Bush to keep us out of his, and others, plans to establish the NAU. With the power plays I see going on in DC, it's obvious that they think they've got it made and it's only a matter of time.

If we do leave, and a civil war starts, it can only be to Iran's advantage. We need a strong Iraq to keep them in check. So what do we do? Leave Iraq and let NATO take over while we invade Iran? Kind of like Afghanistan. I'm not seeing where a civil war would benefit us just yet. It may solve an immediate crisis, but in the long term it will end up solidifying our enemies common hatred of us. Tough question.
Craig
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:01 am    Post subject: Re: America wanted to fail in Iraq Reply with quote

truth4freedom wrote:
If we do leave, and a civil war starts, it can only be to Iran's advantage. We need a strong Iraq to keep them in check. So what do we do? Leave Iraq and let NATO take over while we invade Iran? Kind of like Afghanistan. I'm not seeing where a civil war would benefit us just yet. It may solve an immediate crisis, but in the long term it will end up solidifying our enemies common hatred of us. Tough question.


Iran is not as strong militarily as Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabia has stated that they will fight along side the Sunnis. If the Americans do leave I predict a war between the Saudis and Iranians. The Saudis also do not want to see a nuclear Iran so I wouldn't be surprised if they actually hoped for this soon.
truth4freedom





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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:02 pm    Post subject: Re: America wanted to fail in Iraq Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
Iran is not as strong militarily as Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabia has stated that they will fight along side the Sunnis. If the Americans do leave I predict a war between the Saudis and Iranians. The Saudis also do not want to see a nuclear Iran so I wouldn't be surprised if they actually hoped for this soon.


Now that is something I haven't seen a lot on. I understand the proxy war going on and Iran gets a lot of press, but this is the first I've heard from anyone on the Saudi military capacity. I always thought they just paid everyone off and didn't have much of a functioning military, but with their vast oil reserves I can only assume they must. I'll have to check into that more. So do you see the Saudis taking control of Iraq through a shadow government? And where do you see the Kurds ending up in all of this?
Joahob





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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course the Saudis have a capable military! They are armed with American weaponry, after all. In fact they were the number one purchaser of US arms in 2005, ahead of Israel and Taiwan.

The provinces where the Kingdom's oil reserves are mainly located are where the country's Shiites, Iran's co-religionists, are primarily located. The potential here for a disruption of the oil supply is great, and is magnified when we consider that Iran might in an escalation of conflict block commercial traffic in the Persian Gulf.
TorontoTories





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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: America wanted to fail in Iraq Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
Was a broader war the ultimate goal of the invasion of Iraq? Was America's goal to destabilize the region in order to create an Islamic civil war?


I considered this myself, simply because in both Afghanistan and Iraq the US and her allies have not secured any of the borders, they have not appropriately secured any of the towns and they have not dealt with the countries that are helping the insurgents (Iran, Pakistan, Syria). What's up with this?
Duck Tory





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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

US and Canada must hit these countries that are supporting Al-Qaeda and their allies by hitting these countries with Airstrikes. I'ts the only way to get these rouge regimes to submit and free the people.
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