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don muntean





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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SmartCon wrote:
Craig wrote:
Did I say the Koran is legalized extremism. Or did I say the Islam is? Let me check. I said "Islam". Christianity is 500 years ahead of Islam. Islam is as progressive as Christians were 500 years ago. But thanks for your pro-Islam anti-Christian contributions. If you think it will spare you from their wrath you are mistaken. If you are an atheist (as you sound) you will be first in line. Good luck with that.

If you look around the world are Christians cutting off the heads of non-believers? I'm not particularly religious. I don't go to Church. I probably fall into the agnostic category. But it is atheists who I despise the most of any religious or non-religious group in the world. They are so full of themselves. They even name themselves "smart". It is hilarious. My wife has a Ph.D in physics and is smarter than 99.9999% of atheists in the world but goes to church every Sunday. These jackasses think they know. Guess what - nobody knows. Nobody.

Muslims are laughing at you. It is traitorous people like you that allow them to succeed. They know it. They love you. Every day a mosque is built in North American and it is precisely because of people like you. Whenever anyone attacks the most regressive and hateful religion in the world today people like you come to its defense. You take pleasure in pointing out that the Bible says bad things too. Nevermind that Christians have evolved. Hanging gay people isn't even remotely tolerated in Christian-based countries. It happens on a regular occurrence in many Muslim nations. But in your eyes they are equal.

Christianity built the west into what it is today. There is a huge difference between the value systems of western nations and Islamic nations but people like you turn a blind eye to it. Western values and the western way of life will be dead in 50 years thanks to insular and arrogant people like you.

Every single scientific theory completely falls apart on the ultimate question of creation. At least religion doesn't pretend to know - for religious people it is just faith. They don't know - they just believe. Until science has the ultimate answer it is NO BETTER than any religion - period.


Islam is articulated by the Quran, they are therefore one in the same. Without the Quran there would be no Islam. Just as without the Bible there would be no Christians.

I'm not worried about the "wrath" of Islam. There is no wrath of Islam, just a few crazies with a crazy interpretation of the Quran.

You state "Muslims are laughing at you. It is traitorous people like you that allow them to succeed". As far as I am concerned, you're a bigot. Maybe you should let your wife with the PhD take over your blogg. How can you paint all Muslims as the enemy as you have here? There are many Muslims who are peaceful. They don't act on the extremist portions of the Quran just like many Christians don't act on extreme portions of the Bible I pointed out above.

As far as I am concerned, there is no "us" and "them". There is no conflict between Islam and Christianity. There is simply conflict between the world at large and those who use religious text to justify extremism.


SmartCon get your head out of the sand... :roll:
Craig
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

don muntean wrote:
SmartCon get your head out of the sand... :roll:


Not even worth trying. Can you imagine how apoplectic the left and the media would be if Christians were committing terrorist attacks at the rate of 250 per month globally? Seriously, can you imagine what they would be saying? But in the case of Islam not only do they get a free pass but they can spit on us by building a Mosque at the site of the worst attack! In fact, the media only reports the attacks that are too obvious to bury - most go unreported. And people like "SmartCon" (who is neither of the things his name implies) couldn't care less. So long as there is a single peaceful Muslim in the world you can't say anything bad about Islam. That single peaceful Muslim is living proof that I am a bigot and Islam is wonderful.
SmartCon





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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig, you just don't get it. Islam is not the problem, extremism is. Here are some recent examples if Christian extremism:

IRA and Orange Volunteers:
http://www.terrorism-and-terro.....reland.php

Christian Terrorists in US (2010)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8593975.stm

Lords Resistance Army (original name: Uganda Christian Democratic Army)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/.....ra/lra.htm

What is the difference between groups like this and Al Qaeda? The only difference I see is one uses the Bible to justify terror while another uses the Quran.
don muntean





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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SmartCon wrote:
Craig, you just don't get it. Islam is not the problem, extremism is. Here are some recent examples if Christian extremism:

IRA and Orange Volunteers:
http://www.terrorism-and-terro.....reland.php

Christian Terrorists in US (2010)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8593975.stm

Lords Resistance Army (original name: Uganda Christian Democratic Army)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/.....ra/lra.htm

What is the difference between groups like this and Al Qaeda? The only difference I see is one uses the Bible to justify terror while another uses the Quran.


Did you understand what I meant when I wrote this:

"For a basis of understanding we can look at it from a historical perspective...at what point during ww2 did the terms "German" and "Nazi" become so synonymous so as to be pretty much indistinguishable and interchangeable one from the other? What were the factors leading to this indistinguishable identity?"

Do you understand that? Of course I'm not comparing Nazis and Muslims or even Nazis and Islamists. Do you understand the point I was making?

There are many differences but one that stands out is that Islamists target everyone who is outside their group and - they have a revolutionary plan that involves putting everyone to the sword that doesn't submit to Islam under their control.

The terrorist groups that you note do not have any aspirations of a global revolution - with an eye to universal domination. They do not view outsiders as satanic and they do not view the West as the 'great satan'. The IRA is not in the same class as the Islamists. They don't espouse theocracies either.

You give only these examples and these types of groups are at best on the fringe in Christianity - the mass of Christianity is not following the ideas espoused by these groups.

However the same cannot be said of Islam on a global scale.

Taken from that perspective there are a great many Muslims in nations like Iran and Saudi Arabia that are not moderate in the least and the masses in them nations do view outsiders and the West as entirely satanic.

You have to understand what an Islamist is before you can compare them to other organizations?

Do some broader reading? This is a good start - visit the links and read through:

"Many of those described as "Islamists" oppose the use of the term, and claim that their political beliefs and goals are simply an expression of Islamic religious belief."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism

"instead of mobilising the world opinion for a peaceful solution to the problem, the OIC was created not only for inciting the Muslim community for Jihad against Israel but also for serving the political interests of the powerful Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia, its trusted ally Pakistan in South Asia and others"

http://www.southasiaanalysis.o.....r3831.html

"The OIC attracted attention at the opening session of .....the meeting in Putrajaya, Malaysia, on 16 October 2003, where Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad of Malaysia in his speech argued that the Jews control the world: "They invented socialism, communism, human rights and democracy, so that persecuting them would appear to be wrong, so that they can enjoy equal rights with others. With these they have gained control of the most powerful countries and they, this tiny community, have become a world power”. He also said that “The Europeans killed six million Jews out of 12 million, but today the Jews rule the world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them”"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O.....Conference


Last edited by don muntean on Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:09 am; edited 8 times in total
don muntean





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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
don muntean wrote:
SmartCon get your head out of the sand... :roll:


Not even worth trying. Can you imagine how apoplectic the left and the media would be if Christians were committing terrorist attacks at the rate of 250 per month globally? Seriously, can you imagine what they would be saying? But in the case of Islam not only do they get a free pass but they can spit on us by building a Mosque at the site of the worst attack! In fact, the media only reports the attacks that are too obvious to bury - most go unreported. And people like "SmartCon" (who is neither of the things his name implies) couldn't care less. So long as there is a single peaceful Muslim in the world you can't say anything bad about Islam. That single peaceful Muslim is living proof that I am a bigot and Islam is wonderful.


Just like you said before not enough moderates stand up and speak out - they don't seem to be trying to filter out those in their midst that have extremist leanings.

If they confront it - then there cannot be any allegations of anti-Muslim sentiments and "Islamophobia" which are seen - when 'outsiders' have to comment on and/confront the issues of extremists in their midst.

If their community fears being painted with a broad brush then they should have an urgent and sincere motivation to take this responsibility - to ensure that they do not look the other way when they encounter extremists in their midst.

Certainly - they don't want to live in a "cry witch" community setting - yet - they have to consider the long term results of this indifference within their community! What are the alternatives?

I would ask SmartCon to explain how one can go from regular follower to extremist - can SmartCom articulate on that I wonder?
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SmartCon wrote:
Craig wrote:
Islam is legalized extremism.


Well, it does not seem that far off from the bible really. Just some examples of extremism in the bible:

There is one in every crowd. This guy is obviously smarter than all preceding generations combined. The fact that he is willing to pay the jizya with his cultural inheritance is not surprising, as his cultural inheritance is obviously of very little value to him. I just hope he enjoys living in the world he thought he wanted.
Craig
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SmartCon wrote:
Craig, you just don't get it. Islam is not the problem, extremism is. Here are some recent examples if Christian extremism:

IRA and Orange Volunteers:
http://www.terrorism-and-terro.....reland.php

Christian Terrorists in US (2010)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8593975.stm

Lords Resistance Army (original name: Uganda Christian Democratic Army)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/.....ra/lra.htm

What is the difference between groups like this and Al Qaeda? The only difference I see is one uses the Bible to justify terror while another uses the Quran.


There are two big differences...

1. None of the examples you provided want to kill me. Call me selfish but I am more concerned with groups that want to remove my head from my shoulders.

2. You provided 3 examples. I provided 16,000 since 2001.

Keep cheering for the enemy buddy. They want you dead. The IRA doesn't.

If you really want to have a headline competition on this I will have you beat 100 to 1 (literally).

The minute the "Lord's Resistance Army" flies a plane into an American skyscraper in the name of Jesus I will concede the point to you. Until then you just another low life who thinks because he can dig of a couple examples of Christians behaving badly that Islam and Christianity are equal.

Oh yeah - and the IRA is basically Christian factions fight against one another. I'm not even counting that when I talk about Islam. Islam has plenty of factions that kill each other. So that is a pretty lame example (especially since the IRA has long since renounced violence). Same with the Lord's Resistance Army - they are fighting an internal political battle and pose no threat to you or me or western nations in general. Pretty pathetic examples.
Sean McAllister





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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps if the "moderate" Muslims and Koran believers stood up and denounced the terrorists it might make a difference.
teenagetory





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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would not count the Lord's Resistance Army as a Christian extremist movement. The LRA appears to be more a personality cult than a Christian movement. Theologically they are farther away from Evangelical Fundamentalists (such as myself) than Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses etc.

Quote:
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."
(Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

"Suppose you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God hands them over to you and you take captives. And suppose you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you are attracted to her and want to marry her. If this happens, you may take her to your home, where she must shave her head, cut her fingernails, and change all her clothes. Then she must remain in your home for a full month, mourning for her father and mother. After that you may marry her. But if you marry her and then decide you do not like her, you must let her go free. You may not sell her or treat her as a slave, for you have humiliated her." (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NLT)

"Suppose a man has a stubborn, rebellious son who will not obey his father or mother, even though they discipline him. In such cases, the father and mother must take the son before the leaders of the town. They must declare: 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious and refuses to obey. He is a worthless drunkard.' Then all the men of the town must stone him to death. In this way, you will cleanse this evil from among you, and all Israel will hear about it and be afraid." (Deuteronomy 21:18-21 NLT)

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst." (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." Deuteronomy 22:28-29

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)


SmartCon, I have to disagree with your examples. All of these are Old Testament verses, written long before Jesus changed vast portions of the law in forming Christianity.

Jesus said: " But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you."
—Luke 6:27-31. NIV

Find an equivalent statement from the Qu'ran and I will withdraw my criticism of Islam as a religion. By perpetrating violent acts in the name of Jesus, one is going against his teachings. When does similar things in the name of Muhammad, as far as I can tell they are simply being pious by waging jihad.
Craig Smith





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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

teenagetory wrote:
SmartCon, I have to disagree with your examples. All of these are Old Testament verses, written long before Jesus changed vast portions of the law in forming Christianity.

Jesus said: " But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you."
—Luke 6:27-31. NIV

Find an equivalent statement from the Qu'ran and I will withdraw my criticism of Islam as a religion. By perpetrating violent acts in the name of Jesus, one is going against his teachings. When does similar things in the name of Muhammad, as far as I can tell they are simply being pious by waging jihad.


Well, that should shut him up. Well done teenagetory. You know your scriptures well. I'm not a very good Christian myself. SmartCon just does quick Google searches and then tries to act smart.
Craig
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey look at all of the moderates (this is in America)...

don muntean





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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
don muntean wrote:
SmartCon get your head out of the sand... :roll:


Not even worth trying. Can you imagine how apoplectic the left and the media would be if Christians were committing terrorist attacks at the rate of 250 per month globally? Seriously, can you imagine what they would be saying? But in the case of Islam not only do they get a free pass but they can spit on us by building a Mosque at the site of the worst attack! In fact, the media only reports the attacks that are too obvious to bury - most go unreported. And people like "SmartCon" (who is neither of the things his name implies) couldn't care less. So long as there is a single peaceful Muslim in the world you can't say anything bad about Islam. That single peaceful Muslim is living proof that I am a bigot and Islam is wonderful.


Exactly that - if any group - especially Christian - were to be so inclined to radical behaviors - we would see an indignation that could not be measured - the left doesn't even need Christians to do any of them things to pour their derision upon them!

Just see what reactions they have toward our Prime Minister - because of his deep Christian faith.

We hear so much from leftists about the Christian 'Right' and some secret agenda!

We never hear from them about Islamists and their very real agenda - they're usually too busy making excuses for them and defending them as "freedom fighters".

It really ticks me off that one cannot have a rational discussion of these issues without being labeled as bigoted and racist. Too often!

These same people always tear down Christianity and Judaism and the eastern religions of Hinduism and Buddhism - but remain apologetic about Islam. They are intransigent about their biases to the point of helping to enable Islamism.

Ironically - I've spoken to many many Muslims [in chat rooms] over the years and I have never found even one that was 'tolerant' or respectful of 'my' religious perspective.

I have read a great deal of material from all faiths and Islam apparently has the dimmest opinion of 'other' faiths. That is carried into their interactions with others.

I know other faith groups espouse exclusivity but their followers do not reject out of hand anyone/everyone who refuses to accept their religious views as 'the only true way'.

I think you understood this point:

"...at what point during ww2 did the terms "German" and "Nazi" become so synonymous so as to be pretty much indistinguishable and interchangeable one from the other? What were the factors leading to this indistinguishable identity?"

Isn't that a good question for anyone unable [not unwilling] to understand what is happening within Islam - from a global perspective?

When a significant majority in any nation become loyal to a 'group' [religious or political] and become so single-minded - then - it becomes difficult to speak of the collective nationality without reference to the 'group'?

I don't have a problem if someone wants to be Muslim but - I do have a problem if someone thinks that I or anyone one else 'must' do the same. I have a problem with the spread of political Islam.

I have wasted (?) a tremendous amount of time over the years in study of the various religions [and sub-sects] and their texts and I have to say that there IS a difference in the so-called 'basic perspective' of Islam and that of the other faiths.

One can see the claims of each faith and make up their own minds.

I look at the claims of the founder of Islam and I have to reject them.

Not only because they do not measure up but - the claim of being the final prophet and the final word [even above previous messengers] from God doesn't sit well with me. Not to mention the many many other things.

There are things I do not like about Hinduism Christianity Judaism etc., and one doesn't have to fear being critical of those faiths and their various points. Why is it different with Islam? Why are we made to feel guilty if we are critical?

We all have a responsibility to 'test our spirits' as Jesus told us.

We all have a responsibility to see if our faith leads us to love of others - as much as ourselves and - if it doesn't - there is something lacking at the core.

It takes more than two or three quotes in a holy book to establish a creed as it were.

It would seem upon comparison the 'love outsiders' idea is not as very well versed in the Koran as it is in the torah the gospels or even the texts of the eastern faiths.

If anyone doesn't believe that then they can do a search and compare for themselves!
Craig
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If this were Christians you can bet that the media themselves would be burning Bibles. Heck they probably do prior to their Friday night bridge games.
don muntean





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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to share something here that I was not sure i wanted to do.

This is not being posted for any other reason than to show everyone concerned that the issue is much deeper than some want to be willing to admit.

These graffiti tags were photographed in my community - a small community in Canada not much unlike any community in Canada:











There are also other tags that I have since seen. The first one found was in early March and it was spray painted twice in very large letters on a wall downtown. It was painted over before I could photograph it. I found these others since.

What is the message here? Has this been seen anywhere else? I do not know what to think of this. Naturally these were reported to RCMP by letter but - didn't receive any acknowledgment of the complaint!

I am sharing these to show that the issue is there and it isn't going to just go away.


Last edited by don muntean on Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:38 pm; edited 3 times in total
Craig
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is time to apologize to all of those moderate Muslim prospective immigrants and start banning immigration from countries that don't share our values. What kind of society do we want in 50 years for our children? Because CLEARLY the trend is not good.

We can't keep the doors open to all simply because we might close the door on some good prospective immigrants. Discrimination is not a bad word. We should discriminate - not based on race - and perhaps not even based on religion - but we SHOULD discriminate based on values. And if that means intensive interviews, lie detectors, comprehensive histories of applications then so be it. Clearly people who want to alter our society for the worse are gaining a stronghold in our country and it needs to stop before a critical mass is reached.

Progressives will cry foul (because they love Muslim votes) but it is progressive values that are most in jeopardy. It is unfortunate that winning at all costs is what the political game has become. Liberals should be ashamed for whoring themselves for votes.
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