Hamas has only one grievance: Israel's very existence.
Late Saturday, thousands of Gazans received Arabic-language cell-phone messages from the Israeli military, urging them to leave homes where militants might have stashed weapons. -- Associated Press, Dec. 27
Some geopolitical conflicts are morally complicated. The Israel-Gaza war is not. It possesses a moral clarity not only rare but excruciating.
Israel is so scrupulous about civilian life that, risking the element of surprise, it contacts enemy noncombatants in advance to warn them of approaching danger. Hamas, which started this conflict with unrelenting rocket and mortar attacks on unarmed Israelis -- 6,464 launched from Gaza in the past three years -- deliberately places its weapons in and near the homes of its own people.
This has two purposes. First, counting on the moral scrupulousness of Israel, Hamas figures civilian proximity might help protect at least part of its arsenal. Second, knowing that Israelis have new precision weapons that may allow them to attack nonetheless, Hamas hopes that inevitable collateral damage -- or, if it is really fortunate, an errant Israeli bomb -- will kill large numbers of its own people for which, of course, the world will blame Israel.
For Hamas, the only thing more prized than dead Jews are dead Palestinians. The religion of Jew-murder and self-martyrdom is ubiquitous. And deeply perverse, such as the Hamas TV children's program in which an adorable live-action Palestinian Mickey Mouse is beaten to death by an Israeli (then replaced by his more militant cousin, Nahoul the Bee, who vows to continue on Mickey's path to martyrdom).
At war today in Gaza, one combatant is committed to causing the most civilian pain and suffering on both sides. The other combatant is committed to saving as many lives as possible -- also on both sides. It's a recurring theme. Israel gave similar warnings to Southern Lebanese villagers before attacking Hezbollah in the Lebanon war of 2006. The Israelis did this knowing it would lose for them the element of surprise and cost the lives of their own soldiers.
That is the asymmetry of means between Hamas and Israel. But there is equal clarity regarding the asymmetry of ends. Israel has but a single objective in Gaza -- peace: the calm, open, normal relations it offered Gaza when it withdrew in 2005. Doing something never done by the Turkish, British, Egyptian and Jordanian rulers of Palestine, the Israelis gave the Palestinians their first sovereign territory ever in Gaza.
What ensued? This is not ancient history. Did the Palestinians begin building the state that is supposedly their great national aim? No. No roads, no industry, no courts, no civil society at all. The flourishing greenhouses that Israel left behind for the Palestinians were destroyed and abandoned. Instead, Gaza's Iranian-sponsored rulers have devoted all their resources to turning it into a terror base -- importing weapons, training terrorists, building tunnels with which to kidnap Israelis on the other side. And of course firing rockets unceasingly.
The grievance? It cannot be occupation, military control or settlers. They were all removed in September 2005. There's only one grievance and Hamas is open about it. Israel's very existence.
Nor does Hamas conceal its strategy. Provoke conflict. Wait for the inevitable civilian casualties. Bring down the world's opprobrium on Israel. Force it into an untenable cease-fire -- exactly as happened in Lebanon. Then, as in Lebanon, rearm, rebuild and mobilize for the next round. Perpetual war. Since its raison d'etre is the eradication of Israel, there are only two possible outcomes: the defeat of Hamas or the extinction of Israel.
Israel's only response is to try to do what it failed to do after the Gaza withdrawal. The unpardonable strategic error of its architect, Ariel Sharon, was not the withdrawal itself but the failure to immediately establish a deterrence regime under which no violence would be tolerated after the removal of any and all Israeli presence -- the ostensible justification for previous Palestinian attacks. Instead, Israel allowed unceasing rocket fire, implicitly acquiescing to a state of active war and indiscriminate terror.
Hamas's rejection of an extension of its often-violated six-month cease-fire (during which the rockets never stopped, just were less frequent) gave Israel a rare opportunity to establish the norm it should have insisted upon three years ago: no rockets, no mortar fire, no kidnapping, no acts of war. As the U.S. government has officially stated: a sustainable and enduring cease-fire. If this fighting ends with anything less than that, Israel will have lost yet another war. The question is whether Israel still retains the nerve -- and the moral self-assurance -- to win.
"It Is the Jews Who Are Leading the Vehement Campaign Against the Muslims Today"
Preacher: "Who is leading the world today against Islam and its people? Who is leading the fierce and vehement campaign in the world today against Islam and its people? The answer is as clear as day: It is the nation of the Jews. It is the Jews who are leading the vehement campaign against the Muslims today.
[...]
"We Muslims know best the nature of the Jews, because the Koran has informed us about this, and because the pure Sunna of the Prophet Muhammad has devoted much space to informing the Muslims of the truth about the Jews and their hostility to Islam and its Prophet." [...]
"[In] 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion,' The Jews Included Their Plan... Jews Today Are Weaving Their Spider Webs in Order to Encircle Our Nation"
"Their famous book, the existence of which is denied by the reasonable people among them, the so-called Protocols of the Elders of Zion - but we call it the Protocols of the Idiots of Zion... In this book, the Jews included their plan to besiege the whole world by land, by air, by sea, by ideology, by economy, and by the media, as is happening today, my brothers in the nation of the Prophet Muhammad. The Jews today are weaving their spider webs in order to encircle our nation like a bracelet encircles the wrist, and in order to spread corruption throughout the world." [...]
"Allah Willing, The Moment Will Come When... Not a Single Jew Or Zionist is Left on the Face of the Earth"; "Dogs And Pups Bark and Bite, and... Are Impure - That Is The Truth About the Jews"
"Allah willing, the moment will come when their property will be destroyed and their sons annihilated, until not a single Jew or Zionist is left on the face of the Earth.
[...]
"There once was a dog that frightened the entire neighborhood with its barking. This dog begot a pup which was more wicked than its father. The Jews are always the same, brothers. Both dogs and pups bark and bite, and both are impure. That is the truth about the Jews."
......and what about some of the less pleasant things that are to be read in the Talmud?....just saying....
Post some examples with links?
Where does that medieval text come into this? I wonder where you're coming from with that comment...even if there are some "less pleasant" things written in the Talmud you must take them in full context - part of that context is an observation of a lack of use of the Talmud to incite Jews to intolerance and violence.
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1520 votes: 5
Location: Ontario
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:50 pm Post subject:
"NDP's deputy leader denies Israel's right to exist"
If Libby Davies was a Conservative, her head would already have been cut off by the opposition parties and her lifeless body kicked around by the media. Granted, the Liberals are being smart here, siding with the CPC, mainly because they don't want to lose their Jewish support (Toronto) - but really, I don't see anything happening. Layton doesn't have that much to worry about, actually. The Jewish vote goes Red or Blue, not Orange.
Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 192
Location: Niagara, Ontario
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:11 pm Post subject:
don muntean wrote:
infantry67 wrote:
......and what about some of the less pleasant things that are to be read in the Talmud?....just saying....
Post some examples with links?
Where does that medieval text come into this? I wonder where you're coming from with that comment...even if there are some "less pleasant" things written in the Talmud you must take them in full context - part of that context is an observation of a lack of use of the Talmud to incite Jews to intolerance and violence.
Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 192
Location: Niagara, Ontario
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:30 pm Post subject:
don muntean wrote:
infantry67 wrote:
You missed my point.
What was that point then?
My Point...is that there wuill be those that some Jewish people believe that are also stupid....Socialists that get buddy buddy with terrorists dont have a monopoly on saying and/or believing stupid things.....The koran is full of stupid things, as is the talmud....
My Point...is that there wuill be those that some Jewish people believe that are also stupid....Socialists that get buddy buddy with terrorists dont have a monopoly on saying and/or believing stupid things.....The koran is full of stupid things, as is the talmud....
Poor answer...very poor answer...
Criticism of the Talmud is widespread, in great part through the Internet.[29]
The Anti-Defamation League's report on this topic states:
By selectively citing various passages from the Talmud and Midrash, polemicists have sought to demonstrate that Judaism espouses hatred for non-Jews (and specifically for Christians), and promotes obscenity, sexual perversion, and other immoral behavior. To make these passages serve their purposes, these polemicists frequently mistranslate them or cite them out of context (wholesale fabrication of passages is not unknown)...
In distorting the normative meanings of rabbinic texts, anti-Talmud writers frequently remove passages from their textual and historical contexts. Even when they present their citations accurately, they judge the passages based on contemporary moral standards, ignoring the fact that the majority of these passages were composed close to two thousand years ago by people living in cultures radically different from our own. They are thus able to ignore Judaism's long history of social progress and paint it instead as a primitive and parochial religion.
Those who attack the Talmud frequently cite ancient rabbinic sources without noting subsequent developments in Jewish thought, and without making a good-faith effort to consult with contemporary Jewish authorities who can explain the role of these sources in normative Jewish thought and practice.
—Anti-Defamation League, The Talmud in Anti-Semitic Polemics
Rabbi Gil Student, a prolific Internet author, writes:
Anti-Talmud accusations have a long history dating back to the 13th century when the associates of the Inquisition attempted to defame Jews and their religion [see Yitzchak Baer, A History of Jews in Christian Spain, vol. I pp. 150-185]. The early material compiled by hateful preachers like Raymond Martini and Nicholas Donin remain the basis of all subsequent accusations against the Talmud. Some are true, most are false and based on quotations taken out of context, and some are total fabrications [see Baer, ch. 4 f. 54, 82 that it has been proven that Raymond Martini forged quotations]. On the Internet today we can find many of these old accusations being rehashed...
—Gil Student, The Real Truth About the Talmud
As I said - there is no comparison in either of these texts - and the Talmud isn't being used to incite Jews and Israelis against others. Simple as that.
You're excusing away the Islamist political use of the Koran for incitements. You're sidestepping the issue entirely.
Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 192
Location: Niagara, Ontario
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:16 am Post subject:
don muntean wrote:
infantry67 wrote:
don muntean wrote:
infantry67 wrote:
You missed my point.
What was that point then?
My Point...is that there wuill be those that some Jewish people believe that are also stupid....Socialists that get buddy buddy with terrorists dont have a monopoly on saying and/or believing stupid things.....The koran is full of stupid things, as is the talmud....
Poor answer...very poor answer...
Criticism of the Talmud is widespread, in great part through the Internet.[29]
The Anti-Defamation League's report on this topic states:
By selectively citing various passages from the Talmud and Midrash, polemicists have sought to demonstrate that Judaism espouses hatred for non-Jews (and specifically for Christians), and promotes obscenity, sexual perversion, and other immoral behavior. To make these passages serve their purposes, these polemicists frequently mistranslate them or cite them out of context (wholesale fabrication of passages is not unknown)...
In distorting the normative meanings of rabbinic texts, anti-Talmud writers frequently remove passages from their textual and historical contexts. Even when they present their citations accurately, they judge the passages based on contemporary moral standards, ignoring the fact that the majority of these passages were composed close to two thousand years ago by people living in cultures radically different from our own. They are thus able to ignore Judaism's long history of social progress and paint it instead as a primitive and parochial religion.
Those who attack the Talmud frequently cite ancient rabbinic sources without noting subsequent developments in Jewish thought, and without making a good-faith effort to consult with contemporary Jewish authorities who can explain the role of these sources in normative Jewish thought and practice.
—Anti-Defamation League, The Talmud in Anti-Semitic Polemics
Rabbi Gil Student, a prolific Internet author, writes:
Anti-Talmud accusations have a long history dating back to the 13th century when the associates of the Inquisition attempted to defame Jews and their religion [see Yitzchak Baer, A History of Jews in Christian Spain, vol. I pp. 150-185]. The early material compiled by hateful preachers like Raymond Martini and Nicholas Donin remain the basis of all subsequent accusations against the Talmud. Some are true, most are false and based on quotations taken out of context, and some are total fabrications [see Baer, ch. 4 f. 54, 82 that it has been proven that Raymond Martini forged quotations]. On the Internet today we can find many of these old accusations being rehashed...
—Gil Student, The Real Truth About the Talmud
As I said - there is no comparison in either of these texts - and the Talmud isn't being used to incite Jews and Israelis against others. Simple as that.
You're excusing away the Islamist political use of the Koran for incitements. You're sidestepping the issue entirely.
Oh please....a pathetic attempt by you. I know what I know, and you CLAIM to know what you know.....There is enough evidence to suggest that there are kooks on both sides of the arguement, and by you 'trivializing' the talmud in order to downplay its teachings, makes one wonder if you are not one of them....Just be honest, you'll feel better.
Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.
Baba Kamma 37b. "If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite...the payment is to be in full."
Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile ("heathen") it does not have to be returned.
Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.
Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."
Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile.
Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.
Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.
Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.
Rosh Hashanah 17a. Christians (minnim) and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations.
Gittin 70a. The Rabbis taught: "On coming from a privy (outdoor toilet) a man should not have sexual intercourse till he has waited long enough to walk half a mile, because the demon of the privy is with him for that time; if he does, his children will be epileptic."
Menahoth 43b-44a. A Jewish man is obligated to say the following prayer every day: Thank you God for not making me a gentile, a woman or a slave.
There are many more....and again, YOU missed my point...
MP Libby Davis is entitled to join in an anti-Israel demonstration if she so chooses. She is also entitled to express her views on Jews and Israel. In her position as Deputy Leader of the NDP, her views appear to have substantial support within the party. That gives us insight into NDP thinking and policy.
Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 192
Location: Niagara, Ontario
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:35 am Post subject:
WestViking wrote:
MP Libby Davis is entitled to join in an anti-Israel demonstration if she so chooses. She is also entitled to express her views on Jews and Israel. In her position as Deputy Leader of the NDP, her views appear to have substantial support within the party. That gives us insight into NDP thinking and policy.
My Point...is that there wuill be those that some Jewish people believe that are also stupid....Socialists that get buddy buddy with terrorists dont have a monopoly on saying and/or believing stupid things.....The koran is full of stupid things, as is the talmud....
Poor answer...very poor answer...
Criticism of the Talmud is widespread, in great part through the Internet.[29]
The Anti-Defamation League's report on this topic states:
By selectively citing various passages from the Talmud and Midrash, polemicists have sought to demonstrate that Judaism espouses hatred for non-Jews (and specifically for Christians), and promotes obscenity, sexual perversion, and other immoral behavior. To make these passages serve their purposes, these polemicists frequently mistranslate them or cite them out of context (wholesale fabrication of passages is not unknown)...
In distorting the normative meanings of rabbinic texts, anti-Talmud writers frequently remove passages from their textual and historical contexts. Even when they present their citations accurately, they judge the passages based on contemporary moral standards, ignoring the fact that the majority of these passages were composed close to two thousand years ago by people living in cultures radically different from our own. They are thus able to ignore Judaism's long history of social progress and paint it instead as a primitive and parochial religion.
Those who attack the Talmud frequently cite ancient rabbinic sources without noting subsequent developments in Jewish thought, and without making a good-faith effort to consult with contemporary Jewish authorities who can explain the role of these sources in normative Jewish thought and practice.
—Anti-Defamation League, The Talmud in Anti-Semitic Polemics
Rabbi Gil Student, a prolific Internet author, writes:
Anti-Talmud accusations have a long history dating back to the 13th century when the associates of the Inquisition attempted to defame Jews and their religion [see Yitzchak Baer, A History of Jews in Christian Spain, vol. I pp. 150-185]. The early material compiled by hateful preachers like Raymond Martini and Nicholas Donin remain the basis of all subsequent accusations against the Talmud. Some are true, most are false and based on quotations taken out of context, and some are total fabrications [see Baer, ch. 4 f. 54, 82 that it has been proven that Raymond Martini forged quotations]. On the Internet today we can find many of these old accusations being rehashed...
—Gil Student, The Real Truth About the Talmud
As I said - there is no comparison in either of these texts - and the Talmud isn't being used to incite Jews and Israelis against others. Simple as that.
You're excusing away the Islamist political use of the Koran for incitements. You're sidestepping the issue entirely.
Oh please....a pathetic attempt by you. I know what I know, and you CLAIM to know what you know.....There is enough evidence to suggest that there are kooks on both sides of the arguement, and by you 'trivializing' the talmud in order to downplay its teachings, makes one wonder if you are not one of them....Just be honest, you'll feel better.
One of them? One of what? I wasn't going to label you as antisemitic but I' going to do just that...shame on you!
Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 192
Location: Niagara, Ontario
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:19 pm Post subject:
don muntean wrote:
infantry67 wrote:
don muntean wrote:
infantry67 wrote:
don muntean wrote:
infantry67 wrote:
You missed my point.
What was that point then?
My Point...is that there wuill be those that some Jewish people believe that are also stupid....Socialists that get buddy buddy with terrorists dont have a monopoly on saying and/or believing stupid things.....The koran is full of stupid things, as is the talmud....
Poor answer...very poor answer...
Criticism of the Talmud is widespread, in great part through the Internet.[29]
The Anti-Defamation League's report on this topic states:
By selectively citing various passages from the Talmud and Midrash, polemicists have sought to demonstrate that Judaism espouses hatred for non-Jews (and specifically for Christians), and promotes obscenity, sexual perversion, and other immoral behavior. To make these passages serve their purposes, these polemicists frequently mistranslate them or cite them out of context (wholesale fabrication of passages is not unknown)...
In distorting the normative meanings of rabbinic texts, anti-Talmud writers frequently remove passages from their textual and historical contexts. Even when they present their citations accurately, they judge the passages based on contemporary moral standards, ignoring the fact that the majority of these passages were composed close to two thousand years ago by people living in cultures radically different from our own. They are thus able to ignore Judaism's long history of social progress and paint it instead as a primitive and parochial religion.
Those who attack the Talmud frequently cite ancient rabbinic sources without noting subsequent developments in Jewish thought, and without making a good-faith effort to consult with contemporary Jewish authorities who can explain the role of these sources in normative Jewish thought and practice.
—Anti-Defamation League, The Talmud in Anti-Semitic Polemics
Rabbi Gil Student, a prolific Internet author, writes:
Anti-Talmud accusations have a long history dating back to the 13th century when the associates of the Inquisition attempted to defame Jews and their religion [see Yitzchak Baer, A History of Jews in Christian Spain, vol. I pp. 150-185]. The early material compiled by hateful preachers like Raymond Martini and Nicholas Donin remain the basis of all subsequent accusations against the Talmud. Some are true, most are false and based on quotations taken out of context, and some are total fabrications [see Baer, ch. 4 f. 54, 82 that it has been proven that Raymond Martini forged quotations]. On the Internet today we can find many of these old accusations being rehashed...
—Gil Student, The Real Truth About the Talmud
As I said - there is no comparison in either of these texts - and the Talmud isn't being used to incite Jews and Israelis against others. Simple as that.
You're excusing away the Islamist political use of the Koran for incitements. You're sidestepping the issue entirely.
Oh please....a pathetic attempt by you. I know what I know, and you CLAIM to know what you know.....There is enough evidence to suggest that there are kooks on both sides of the arguement, and by you 'trivializing' the talmud in order to downplay its teachings, makes one wonder if you are not one of them....Just be honest, you'll feel better.
One of them? One of what? I wasn't going to label you as antisemitic but I' going to do just that...shame on you!
Nothing could be further from the truth...but really, I could care less what YOU label me. ...Anyways, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about....labels....fu$k you and your labels, buddy...this is Canada, not the middle east.
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NDP's deputy leader denies Israel's right to exist
