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RCO





Joined: 02 Mar 2009
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Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:16 am    Post subject: Liberals win leadership campaign loan extension Reply with quote

( apparently being a liberal means never having to pay off your debts )


Liberals win leadership campaign loan extension
Glen McGregor, Canwest News Service
Published: Tuesday, February 02, 2010


Simon Hayter/Getty Images
Newly elected Liberal Party Leader Stephane Dion delivers his victory speech on Dece. 2, 2006 in Montreal.
OTTAWA -- Former leader Stephane Dion and five other Liberal MPs have been given two-year extensions to repay loans used to finance their 2006 campaigns for leadership of the party.

Lawyers acting for the candidates were forced to go to court last month to apply for an extension of time to pay off their campaign debts.

A previous extension, granted by Chief Electoral Officer Marc Mayrand, expired at the end of last year and he was not allowed to grant another.

Elections Canada said Tuesday it had been advised that Justice Paul B. Kane of the Ontario Superior Court last week granted MPs Dion, Maurizio Bevilacqua, Hedy Fry, Joe Volpe, Martha Hall Findlay and Gerard Kennedy until the end of 2011 to pay off their debts.

Toronto MP Ken Dryden, who also sought the leadership in 2006, was not included in the decision because Mayrand had already given him until next year to repay his loans.

Bob Rae and current leader Michael Ignatieff were able to pay down their debts without any extensions.



Read more: http://www.nationalpost.com/ne.....z0eTinrPvz
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http://www.nationalpost.com/ne.....id=2513480
Michael Harkov





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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it curious that Liberals crow about their new-found fundraising power, yet find it too difficult to pay off the debt from a years past leadership race. How........convenient.

Why even come up with this rule in the first place if it is NEVER going to be enforced? How many "extensions" are going to be granted the Liberals for constantly being in violation of this rule? That is what, 3 now, 4? The chances are pretty good that another election is going to occur before then, which will drain even more money from Liberal coffers. What happens if there is another election before these loans are paid and we get another Tory minority government, thus putting us in constant election mode like last time? The Liberals will then conveniently find it increasingly more difficult to pay off their loans. So does EC extend in perpetuity? Unless, of course, the Liberals manage to gain power. Then I wouldn't be at all surprised that these loans will mysteriously get paid off - along with a curious uptick in the brown paper market.

In the light of EC's ardent pursuit of the Tories in regards to the legal "in and out", and EC's willingness to look the other way for the Liberals, the question of bias seems moot; because it is now appears obvious. It is more than apparent by now that the Tories face an uphill battle on so many fronts - the MSM, EC, the beauracracy - that it is utterly amazing that they are where they are at now in the current polling scheme.
FF_Canuck





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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Harkov wrote:
I find it curious that Liberals crow about their new-found fundraising power, yet find it too difficult to pay off the debt from a years past leadership race. How........convenient.

To be fair, the Liberals really haven't been doing as well with fundraising as they claim. They had 1 fiscal quarter where they almost matched the CPC - thanks to the huge delegate fees members paid at their convention in Vancouver. They're only marginally better than they've been in previous years.

That said, the bias EC has against the Conservatives is evident.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
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Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FF_Canuck wrote:
That said, the bias EC has against the Conservatives is evident.

Clear and evident... Perhaps some of these non-partisan bureaucrats need to be invited to take a long walk in the snow?

-Mac
DavidK





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Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
FF_Canuck wrote:
That said, the bias EC has against the Conservatives is evident.

Clear and evident... Perhaps some of these non-partisan bureaucrats need to be invited to take a long walk in the snow?

-Mac


Silly Conservatives...Don't you know that if you fire a Liberal hack, you are just being a Conservative hack?


This is a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't
RCO





Joined: 02 Mar 2009
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Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FF_Canuck wrote:
Michael Harkov wrote:
I find it curious that Liberals crow about their new-found fundraising power, yet find it too difficult to pay off the debt from a years past leadership race. How........convenient.

To be fair, the Liberals really haven't been doing as well with fundraising as they claim. They had 1 fiscal quarter where they almost matched the CPC - thanks to the huge delegate fees members paid at their convention in Vancouver. They're only marginally better than they've been in previous years.

That said, the bias EC has against the Conservatives is evident.



this extension decision was granted by a judge at an ontario superior court , meaning the judge was likely appointed by the provincial government ? would he of been a mcguinty appointee ? or do the feds select those judges i'm not sure
DFP





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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
FF_Canuck wrote:
That said, the bias EC has against the Conservatives is evident.

Clear and evident... Perhaps some of these non-partisan bureaucrats need to be invited to take a long walk in the snow?

-Mac


errr...conservatives in the past have been granted loan extensions by the courts. It's within their rights to seek an extension past the agreed upon due date.

Now this attack on the EC is quite the dangerous move by the CPC, and it likely won't help their credibility further down the road. Comparing this court ruling with the EC's in and out investigation is entirely without merit. There are two unsettled investigations into election funding. The first is the in and out process, which is without precedent, and so requires far more scrutiny as to the behaviour of this process. If it's being seen as an unfair attack on the CPC, then that may be warrantd, however, the EC is in place to maintain the ability for parties to run for government on an equal footing. If one party is deemed to be exploiting a loophole, or simply gaining an unfair advantage during the election campaigns, the EC is meant to keep the balance of our elections (you know, democracy and stuff) The second is the GST rebates from the...2006 election is it? Where the limits on personal contributions were reduced at a time when campaigning was already underway. So the CPC is using its willfull payback as a means to discredit both the EC and the Liberals, but as it is entirely voluntary and the EC wasn't actually seeking to make up the difference in GST payments for that particular election, it comes off as a partisan move. Moreso, given the potential ability to raise over and above their current spending limits as a result of paying back the amount, whereas the Liberals would be penalized if forced into repaying the GST on the campaign spending, as their donor base is significantly less than the CPC. Now this loan extension by the courts - not the EC - is a practical effort to ensure the ability of our politicians to run for office. This isn't to suggest that some of this handful of Libs are not going to be cash-strapped for the next election if they can't come up with the funds, but rather they'll either have to encourage their base to donate to their campaign (limiting loans) or wage a campaign on less funds, key battleground ridings may be tipped in favour of an opposing candidate if they don't have the funds to gain the necessary votes. I think that's perfectly fair.

Think of it as re-negotiating a loan or a mortgage at the bank, simply put, if you've made the payments, and the bank thinks your good for the rest of it, they may choose to extend a line of credit on top of it, or they may renegotiate the payments to reflect a change in income,etc.

There's nothing inherently unethical about this court's decision.

Sheesh, the bias is chock full here today. Even the NP is quite evidently doctoring the original Ottawa Citizen article.

For the purposes of full-disclosure, here's the original article minus the NP spin:
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/n.....story.html

OTTAWA — Former leader Stéphane Dion and five other Liberal MPs have been given two-year extensions to repay more than $700,000 in loans and other expenses still outstanding from their 2006 campaign for their party’s top job.

Lawyers acting for the candidates were forced to go to court last week to apply for an extension of time to pay off their leadership race debts.

A previous extension, granted by Chief Electoral Officer Marc Mayrand, expired at the end of last year and he was not allowed to grant another.

Elections Canada said Tuesday it had been advised that Mr. Justice Paul B. Kane of the Ontario Superior Court last week granted fresh extensions to MPs Dion, Maurizio Bevilacqua, Hedy Fry, Joe Volpe, Martha Hall Findlay and Gerard Kennedy. They have until the end of 2011 to pay off their campaign debts.

Mayrand did not oppose the application made before the court in Ottawa.

The candidates will also have to file financial reports with Elections Canada every six months, beginning in March.

Toronto MP Ken Dryden, who also sought the leadership, was not included in the decision because Mayrand has given him until next year to repay his loans.

Bob Rae and current leader Michael Ignatieff were able to pay down their debts without any extensions.

Even with Mayrand’s original extension, the Liberal candidates struggled to raise money to balance their campaign books. The task required them to find donors willing to give to failed leadership bids – or, in Dion’s case, a moribund turn as party leader – and was made harder by the economic downturn.

Until Kane’s reprieve, the Liberals faced the awkward possibility of having the loans deemed to be contributions to the campaigns. As most of the outstanding debt was in the tens of thousands of dollars, those contributions would have exceeded the legal limit, potentially putting either the donor or the campaigns in breach of the Elections Act.

In court documents, the Liberals say they “truly desire to pay all their outstanding claims” and promise to hold numerous fund-raisers and other events to come up with the cash.

They say the lower donation limit of $1,000 per contributor brought in by the Harper government after the leadership convention has made it harder to raise money. They were expecting to draw on donors who could have given up to $5,000 each.

They also claimed that the instability of the minority government and the 2008 general election made fund-raising more difficult.

In an affidavit filed in support of the application, Kennedy’s financial agent said the illness and death of Kennedy’s mother forced the campaign to postpone fund-raising events and left it owing $131,361 at the end of 2009.

According to other affidavits, Bevilacqua’s campaign still owed $193,133 in unpaid debts and expenses at the end of the year. Volpe’s owed $152,800, Findlay’s $130,260; and Fry’sanother $78,500. The Dion campaign carried the smallest debt into the new year, owing $40,000.

Some of the loans to the campaigns were made by the candidates themselves. Findlay lent herself $200,000 to run for the party’s top job, but her campaign is still required by law to raise the money and pay her back.

Conservative MP Pierre Poilievre questioned why Mayrand didn't intervene in the case after Elections Canada spent in excess of a $1 million on the investigation and related court case over the Conservatives' "in and out" financing of the 2006 election campaign.

"The Chief Electoral Officer was named as a respondent in the court proceedings commenced by the Liberals, yet he did not file one piece of paper and the draft order suggests no one from Elections Canada even appeared at the hearing," Poilievre said in a written statement.

"In light of these developments, it is becoming increasingly difficult to trust the impartiality of Elections Canada.”

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DFP wrote:

Think of it as re-negotiating a loan or a mortgage at the bank, simply put, if you've made the payments, and the bank thinks your good for the rest of it, they may choose to extend a line of credit on top of it, or they may renegotiate the payments to reflect a change in income,etc.



Wait a second,
Back up the bus.

While you are correct that in the past other political bodies have received extensions to pay back loans,

The Liberals are in this mess because they have kept their election war chest stocked in favor of repayment, not because of an inability to make re-payment.

There has been no hiccup in Liberal fundraising,

This is not like the after the 1993 PC leadership election where extension were granted because the party couldn't raise money to save their lives.

This is a party that has had success raising money, and simply using this as a partisan tact.

This is sort of like renegotiation your mortgage with the bank,

but a more apt way of putting is, is that you go to bank and say that you are going to skip a few payments on your mortgage because you are planning on going into further debt with with a loanshark who you will need to pay off first.
DFP





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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol completely misconstrued analysis once again cosmotein. The debt incurred by these members were largely personal business matters, related to the leadership bids they put forth. This has nothing to do with the Liberal party of Canada's election financing.

In fact, this is precisely how it is stated in the original article, consequently the first sentence if you even bothered to pay even the least bit of attention to the actual issue:

"OTTAWA — Former leader Stéphane Dion and five other Liberal MPs have been given two-year extensions to repay more than $700,000 in loans and other expenses still outstanding from their 2006 campaign for their party’s top job."

Please, at least, pay attention.

And if I sound like I'm being harsh, it's because I feel like I have to with you. (patronizing indeed)
Mac





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Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree, DFP... you don't sound harsh at all. Just patronizing and smarmy. Not much better than harsh but more accurate.

Hmmm... I wonder how you would propose the Conservatives deal with Elections Canada when (and if) EC launches another smear campaign against the Conservatives? OR do you consider the tactics used in the EC's ill-conceived persecution of the "In & Out Funding" issue to be somehow justified, especially since the courts ruled against EC?

-Mac
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DFP wrote:
lol completely misconstrued analysis once again cosmotein. The debt incurred by these members were largely personal business matters, related to the leadership bids they put forth. This has nothing to do with the Liberal party of Canada's election financing.

In fact, this is precisely how it is stated in the original article, consequently the first sentence if you even bothered to pay even the least bit of attention to the actual issue:

"OTTAWA — Former leader Stéphane Dion and five other Liberal MPs have been given two-year extensions to repay more than $700,000 in loans and other expenses still outstanding from their 2006 campaign for their party’s top job."

Please, at least, pay attention.

And if I sound like I'm being harsh, it's because I feel like I have to with you. (patronizing indeed)


The problem is that the Liberal Leadership hopefuls have been holding fundraisers to pay off their debts and raise money for a pending election part and parcel of each other.

Or have you been to a Gerard Kennedy for Liberal Leader 2006 Cocktail party within the last few months?

All of the election campaigns of the candidates in questions have funds set aside for an election, and if they are using the same mechanism to raise money for their fail bids and their future elections I fail to understand why there is not a first in first out approach?

Elections Canada turned the screws on the Progressive Conservative Leadership hopefuls from 1993, I fail to understand why the precedent is different?

The failed leaders are using the Liberal Party of Canada as a mechanism to raise money for both their bids and a pending election at the same time, why are the candidates being allowed to color their money? The Progressive Conservatives in 1993 were not, nor were the New Democrats in 1995.

You keep making an attempt to say its a private business venture, its something that is off to the side and doesn't count

But they are all actively raising money, and there is little to no differentiation between Liberal X raising money for their failed campaign and a standard Liberal Party Mixer within those riding.

After the money is being raise, 10 dollars is deemed "Election money" 50 cents is deemed "Leadership Money", you keep making this strange attempt to imply that the candidates are raising money separately from their own standard fund raising, but even the Candidates are not bothering with that illusion.

You are welcome to attempt to be as "harsh" with me as you want, I am interested to see how this is "different" as there always seems to be an exception made when it pertains to our friends in red.
Mac Enigmac





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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cosmostein wrote:
You are welcome to attempt to be as "harsh" with me as you want, I am interested to see how this is "different" as there always seems to be an exception made when it pertains to our friends in red.

Always for the Liberals and persecute the Tories but there's no evident bias, right?

-Mac
NYK007





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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Sandy here from Canada. As I have seen your comments & I am obliged that you have share a lot of information with us.

Thanks
Sandy



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Liberals win leadership campaign loan extension

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