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Craig Smith





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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love it how leftards try to justify Islam's horrible record by saying Christians are just as bad. Not only are their examples poorly thought out (as I showed above) but as a Christian I am slightly less concerned about Christian crazies as I am about Islamic crazies. And atheists should be less concerned about Christian crazies too (but that's just me trying to be helpful).
Craig
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A thought just occurred to me. Maybe it was the IRA. Someone contact airport security and tell them to start searching Irish people extra carefully. No wait. Even though the IRA isn't a religious organization they are almost exclusively Catholics. Tell them to start searching Catholics extra carefully!

Abdul Farouk Abdulmutallab once watched the movie Rounders which has several Irish cast members. There's the connection! By Allah mandy - I think you are onto something...
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bet Saudis are trembling in their boots about the possibility of having to fly on an airplane with the IRA on the loose!!! They probably scan the daily newspapers looking for the latest in a nearly continuous string of IRA bombings and be-headings being committed in dozens of countries around the world! I know that I personally have lost many nights of sleep worrying about the possibility that the IRA might strike Calgary.
mr12387





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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off, this "leftard" is not trying to justify Islamic terrorism in the least bit. I'm just tired of this my "shit don't stink" attitude by non-Muslims. What was the need for the large writing of certain words at the beginning of the thread. We're all aware of whose causing this terrorism and it's almost as if the Christian right has an inferiority complex and has to preach 'the evil' of Islam whenever they can in order to compete with their biggest competition religion-wise.

I won't be posting any more on this thread. Discussions like this can get very dirty and I don't feel like going down that route.
don muntean





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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mr12387 wrote:
While I'm likely to get a lot of slack for this I don't really care because many of you sound like a broken record. Islam is 1400 years old. Let's recall some of the things people from your religion did when your religion was about 1400 years old give or take a couple hundred years. (Not that the age of the religion means anything but just trying to further my point)...burnt people at stakes, the Spanish inquisition, forced conversions, the crusades, physical and sexual abuse at orphanages, unfair levels of taxation, racism...

Funny coming from a religion where the key figure preaches love.

Every religion has their crazies and Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, etc.. have many of their own today.

Today Islam just happens to be at the forefront due to an extremist revolution which began for the most part in the 70's.


Well some could say I have now taken this discussion to the level of 'dirty' - yet - just going by well known facts as related in Islamic literature - the founder of Islam was less than saintly...he was engaged in many activities that are immoral and unclean and...he did these with a child bride:

Bukhari (6:298) - Muhammad would take a bath with the little Aisha and fondle her.

Narrated 'Aisha:

The prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses).


Bukhari (4:232) - Muhammad's wives would wash semen stains out of his clothes, which were still wet from the spot-cleaning even when he went to the mosque for prayers.

Sahih Bukhari volume 1, book 4, number 231:

Narrated Sulaiman bin Aasar:

I asked 'Aisha about the clothes soiled with semen. She replied, "i used to wash it off the clothes of Allah's apostle and he would go for the prayer while water spots were still visible. "


Those are a sample of quotes from the authorized 'haditha' or biography of the founder of Islam...can we find similar references about the founder of Christianity or - any other religion for that matter? No!

Quote:

Today Islam just happens to be at the forefront due to an extremist revolution which began for the most part in the 70's

Reply:

Not true. Islam has been radicalized from its inception it has only been in the last say three decades that some Muslims are opting for a more 'moderate' - a more 'evolved' faith. Modern radical Islam dates to the 1920's:

"The rise of radical Islam predates Osama bin Laden and his al-Qaida terror franchise, the Taliban, the maverick Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, or even the Muslim Brotherhood. Indeed, modern-day political fanaticism within Islam and the misuse of the pulpit to propagate hatred of other religions, particularly Judaism, can easily be traced back to the early 1920s, in British-mandated Palestine – just a few years before the establishment of the Brotherhood in Egypt.

In a just-released book titled, "Icon of Evil: Hitler's Mufti and the Rise of Radical Islam," Middle East scholars David G. Dalin and John F. Rothmann, describe the harrowing account of Haj Amin al-Husseini, a radical and virulent Palestinian imam, whom the British appointed grand mufti of Jerusalem – the highest Muslim religious authority in the land and which made him one of the most eminent leaders in the Middle East at that time.

"An appointment the British would live to regret, seeing it was not long before he turned on them, too," the authors write.

Husseini wielded a lot of power and influence back in the 1920s and was instrumental in negotiating a pact between Islamic radicals and German Nazi officials. According to the two authors of "Icon of Evil" the mufti of Jerusalem was a longtime admirer of National Socialism and a personal friend of Heinrich Himmler as well as of Adolf Eichmann – two of Adolf Hitler's closest collaborators.

As such, Husseini championed in favor of the final solution – the extermination of all Jews. The grand mufti of Jerusalem encouraged Muslims to join the Waffen SS, a unit that was responsible for the slaughter of 90 percent of Bosnia's Jews.

The authors describe Husseini as charismatic and passionate, demonstrably successful in his recruitment efforts.

"In his sermon at Sarajevo's largest mosque, he brought his audience to tears. To further the recruitment efforts, he wrote a book titled, "Islam and the Jews," which was distributed to Bosnian Muslim SS units during the war, as part of his efforts to incite the murder of Bosnian Jews.

To Himmler's delight, Husseini was eminently successful in these efforts: with his encouragement and incitement, the Bosnian Muslim Waffen-SS company that he recruited, the notorious "Handschar troops," slaughtered 90 percent – 12,600 – of Bosnia's 14,000 Jews.

Early on Husseini incited anti-British riots and supported raids against Jewish settlements. His anti-British and anti-Jewish rhetoric led in fact to the very first intifada in Palestine, as Husseini organized and instigated revolts against Jews living in Jerusalem in 1920, 1929 and 1936. Those eventually led to the Great Arab Revolt of 1937.

With the collapse of the Third Reich Husseini was forced to escape to Egypt and from there to Germany where Hitler, perhaps because of the Mufti's blonde hair and blue eyes, named him "honorary Aryan."

At the end of World War II the maverick mufti managed to escape leaving behind charges of war crimes, as he made his way to Egypt. It was in Egypt, according to the two authors, that Husseini turned to a new generation of Palestinian revolutionaries. Among the younger crop of revolutionaries was a young man, a cousin of the mufti, named Yasser Arafat.

Sixty years after the Holocaust, the legacy left behind by the former mufti of Jerusalem still lives on. Where he left off, others have taken the relay. In the 1920s it was Haj Amin al-Husseini who was ranked at the forefront of anti-Semitism. Today the baton of hate has been relayed to others.

To his supporters, write Dalin and Rothmann, Husseini was a hero of epic proportion: "He was the George Washington of the radical Islamic world. Much like Ataturk in Turkey and Nehru in India, the mufti had won great acclaim in his early years as a charismatic national leader who many foreign leaders believed would lead his people into statehood."

However, a very different, and according to the authors, more accurate view of Husseini was put forward by Edgar Ansel Mowrer, a Pulitzer prize-winning foreign correspondent and nationally syndicated columnist: "as a murderer, this man ranks with the great killers of history."

Of all the harm Husseini may have caused to the Jews in Palestine, in Bosnia and elsewhere, it was perhaps his statement of wanting "to throw the Jews into the sea" that cost him and the Palestinian cause the greatest damage. As the French saying goes, "plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose." "

So the fact is 'modern' radical Islam dates to the 1920's...some fifty years before your claim of the 1970's...


Last edited by don muntean on Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:49 pm; edited 2 times in total
Craig
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mr12387 wrote:
We're all aware of whose causing this terrorism and it's almost as if the Christian right has an inferiority complex and has to preach 'the evil' of Islam whenever they can in order to compete with their biggest competition religion-wise.


1. Your statement is false. The media continues to assert that many of these attacks are the result of insane people and try to hide the fact that the perpetrators are Muslims. Somebody has to highlight the trend since the media won't do it. If you don't like it then don't view or post in these threads.

2. Islam has committed over 14000 acts of terrorism since 9/11. You can try to minimize the importance of that by labeling it as some juvenile "competition" but it isn't. It is a serious problem. People like you make Islamic extremists VERY happy.
don muntean





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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
mr12387 wrote:
We're all aware of whose causing this terrorism and it's almost as if the Christian right has an inferiority complex and has to preach 'the evil' of Islam whenever they can in order to compete with their biggest competition religion-wise.


1. Your statement is false. The media continues to assert that many of these attacks are the result of insane people and try to hide the fact that the perpetrators are Muslims. Somebody has to highlight the trend since the media won't do it. If you don't like it then don't view or post in these threads.

2. Islam has committed over 14000 acts of terrorism since 9/11. You can try to minimize the importance of that by labeling it as some juvenile "competition" but it isn't. It is a serious problem. People like you make Islamic extremists VERY happy.


Exactly! We hear about global terrorism in the media but they fail to label what it really is: Islamic extremism - Islamist terrorism. When the media simply calls it 'terrorism' that veils the facts about the real nature of this problem.

It's not Christians Jews Hindus and Buddhists who are engaged in this terrorism... :roll:
don muntean





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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fiscalconservative wrote:
The war against terror would be un-winable without the help of the Pakistani army and the Saudi secret police.


Bunk!

The Saudi Connection to the Mumbai Massacres:
Strategic Implications for Israel

Col. (res.) Jonathan Fighel


* The Mumbai attacks have been linked to Lashkar-e-Taiba and radical Islamic groups in Kashmir generally. Yet it would be a mistake to see Lashkar only as a local organization with only a local agenda.

* Saudi Arabia has contributed very much to what Lashkar-e-Taiba looks like, how it thinks, its motivation, ideology, and funding. Saudi Arabia presents itself as the protector and the spearhead of the defense of Muslims around the world against what they define as the Western cultural attack.

* The Saudis are very committed to recruiting, funding, and funneling ideology to embattled Muslim minorities, and use Muslim charities as their tool to implement this policy. The Saudi methodology is to take advantage of a humanitarian crisis to get a foot in the door. Who could be against assisting widows and orphans and setting up schools and clinics? Some of the money is indeed funneled to support terrorism - families of suicide bombers.

* The notion of global Islam has also penetrated to Gaza and exists under the umbrella of Hamas, which is enabling a revival of global jihadi organizations there such as Jaish al-Islam and others. This phenomenon is radicalizing the already radicalized society in Gaza.

* Hamas could agree to a hudna (calm) for fifty years, but there will be no recognition of Israel or a cessation of the struggle against it. If Hamas was ready to act pragmatically, it would no longer be Hamas. And then the frustrated factions within Hamas would break off and join up with the radical global jihadi organizations in Gaza.


The similarity of the November 2008 attack in Mumbai to the attack on the Savoy Hotel in Tel Aviv in 1975 was striking. At that time, a Palestinian organization based outside the borders of Israel, in a safe haven in Lebanon, had undergone months of specialized training. With a high level of prior intelligence, several very dedicated assault groups attacked a high-value target.

The Mumbai attacks were not a conventional suicide attack. Since 1998, al-Qaeda's hallmark has been suicide attacks, based upon the whole rationale of jihad, sacrifice and martyrdom. But the attacks in Mumbai did not resemble 7/7 in London or the attacks in Madrid or any other al-Qaeda-style attacks.

What Is Lashkar-e-Taiba?

The Mumbai attacks have been linked to Lashkar-e-Taiba and radical Islamic groups in Kashmir generally. Yet it would be a mistake to see Lashkar only as a local organization with only a local agenda.

The creation and flourishing of Lashkar-e-Taiba would not have been possible unless they were supported by three major elements. The first is the ideology of global jihad. The second is funding and support from external sources. And the third is a territorial base which enables them to conduct activities and maintain training camps.

What is Lashkar-e-Taiba and why is it relevant to the Middle East? Lashkar collects funds from Pakistanis and Kashmiris, as well as the Pakistani community in the Persian Gulf, in the United Kingdom, and elsewhere. Its website appears under the name of Jamaat ud Dawa and the group maintains ties to religious and militant groups around the world. The Jamaat ud Dawa website links directly to the Hamas website.

The Saudi Connection

Since the beginning of the 1990s, Saudi Arabia has contributed very much to what Lashkar-e-Taiba looks like, how it thinks, its motivation, ideology, and funding. Saudi newspapers at the time published calls for jihad to support all Muslim struggles around the world. Kashmir was seen as a place where jihad was taking place, so donations were solicited for the Muslims living there. Allah was said to bless the warriors of this financial jihad.

In August 1999, the Saudi newspaper Al Jazeera reported on a press conference conducted by the World Assembly of Muslim Youth (WAMY), a Saudi-based charity supervised by the government. The group's secretary-general, Maneh al-Johani, praised the role played by Saudi Arabia in providing assistance to Muslims around the world, especially in Kashmir. Johani equated the Kashmir issue with the situation in Kosovo and Palestine, and called on Muslims to help the Kashmiri people.

Radical Wahhabi, Salafi, Saudi Islam sees the world in confrontation, with zones of jihad where Muslim minorities are struggling politically and religiously against other forces. The struggle can be with Israel, Serbia, India, or the Philippines. Saudi Arabia presents itself as the protector and the spearhead of the defense of Muslims around the world against what the former Supreme Religious Authority of Saudi Arabia, the late Sheikh Abdul Aziz Ibn Baz (Ben Baz), defined as the Western cultural attack.

This is the ideology behind Saudi politics. The Saudis are very committed to recruiting, funding, and funneling ideology to those Muslim minorities, and use Muslim charities as their tool to implement this policy. In September 2000, the Saudi newspaper Al Jazeera reported on an additional press conference by WAMY Secretary-General Johani, who discussed Saudi Arabia's role in providing aid to Kashmir and asked the Islamic countries to play an effective part in saving Kashmir's Muslims. Johani described the Kashmiri people's jihad and noted that they had suffered thousands of casualties. "The Kashmiri people want to protect their Islamic entity and we must help them," he concluded.

Since the end of the war in Afghanistan in 1989, the Saudi contribution to entrenching the phenomenon of global jihad around the world has mushroomed, whether in Chechnya, the Philippines, Kosovo, or the Palestinian territories. Yet for all this, Saudi Arabia is not held accountable.

The Saudi methodology is to take advantage of a humanitarian crisis to get a foot in the door. Who could be against assisting widows and orphans and setting up schools and clinics? It is a methodology that has been duplicated all around the world. Since direct assistance to armed groups is problematic for Saudi Arabia, they use "charities," which are actually organizations that use the social network called the dawa to propagate their ideology through mosques, health clinics, and madrassas, to influence minds and recruit supporters to Wahhabi-style ideology and commitment. Some of the money is indeed funneled to support terrorism - families of suicide bombers.

It is now evident that the so-called Saudi non-governmental charities are closely monitored by the Saudi government. The Saudis have understood that they were under pressure from the West and so they were very willing to sacrifice the Al-Haramain charity. It was banned and dismantled, but other charities were not, like the Islamic Relief Organization (IRO). The Saudi charities just change names and, unfortunately, nothing concrete is being done. There is no all-out campaign to dismantle all those charities.

Training Camps in Pakistan

Lashkar-e-Taiba has created an infrastructure inside Pakistan which is relevant to struggles beyond the boundaries of Kashmir or India. It has created an operational capability in its training camps through the use of highly skilled instructors, veterans of the Afghan war. Some well-known terrorists have passed through those training camps before launching their attacks. The shoe bomber, Richard Reid, was trained in a Lashkar training camp, as was Dhiren Barot, a British subject and a Hindu who converted to Islam, who was the mastermind of a failed gas cylinder bombing plot in London and who also prepared detailed blueprints for al-Qaeda of the buildings in New York's financial district.

Lashkar-e-Taiba is headed by Muhammad Saeed, who plays a key role in the group's operational activities, terrorist training camps, ideology, and in its worldwide activities. Saeed was reportedly arrested in Pakistan in February 2009. Saeed determines where the graduates of the Lashkar camps in Pakistan are sent to fight and in 2005 he personally organized the infiltration of Lashkar militants into Iraq. He was in Saudi Arabia at the time, with the knowledge of the Saudi government (you cannot enter Saudi Arabia without permission). He also arranged for Lashkar operatives to be sent to Europe as fundraising coordinators. So Saudi Arabia again was a launching pad for sending highly-trained mujahidin to the war against the Americans in Iraq. This shows the global nature of Lashkar-e-Taiba. It is not just a provincial organization but one that has a global reach.

Haji Mohammad Ashraf has been Lashkar's chief financier since 2003, expanding the organization and increasing its fundraising activities. Mahmoud Mohammed Ahmad Ba'aziq, a Saudi national, served as the Lashkar leader in Saudi Arabia during the 1980s and 1990s, before Ashraf, and coordinated fundraising activity with non-governmental charities and businessmen in Saudi Arabia. The Saudi regime is aware of the money going to Lashkar in Saudi Arabia for its activities around the world.

Lashkar operations chief Zakir Rehman Lakvi was also reportedly arrested in a Pakistani raid on a Lashkar training camp. He was one of the masterminds of the Mumbai attack and was in constant cellular phone contact with the attackers. Lakvi has been very much involved in military operations in Chechnya, Bosnia, and Iraq.

Lashkar-e-Taiba would not have evolved to the scale they have reached without Saudi assistance. One key Saudi who helped build Lashkar into such an efficient and highly-trained organization is Abdul Aziz Barbaros. Barbaros, whose real name is Abdul Ahman el-Dosfari, fought with al-Qaeda in Afghanistan. He was one of the founding members of Lashkar in Kashmir after the end of the Afghan war. He also traveled to Bosnia to assist the al-Qaeda-oriented mujahidin brigades there. During the 1980s and 1990s Barbaros served as a critical link between Lashkar, wealthy and pious Saudi financiers, and Pakistani and Muslim fanatics around the world.

Hamas leader Sheikh Yassin in Gaza routinely delivered speeches addressed to Lashkar-e-Taiba militant rallies in Kashmir and Pakistan. This is an example of the general mindset of radical Islamic solidarity. The Hamas leader in Gaza showed that he cared about what was happening with other Muslim minorities around the world, as they should care about what is happening in Gaza or the West Bank. This is not necessarily directly connected to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. In Iraq, this is seen as a struggle against the American "Crusade occupation." This reflects Bin Laden's 1998 declaration of jihad, when he spoke of the Islamic front against the Crusaders and the Jews. So everything is linked and what happened in Mumbai has a wider perspective.

Global Islam Penetrates Gaza

The notion of global Islam has also penetrated to Gaza and to some extent in the West Bank. This phenomenon exists under the umbrella of Hamas, which enables a revival of global jihadi organizations in Gaza such as Jaish al-Islam and others. The emergence of these groups is worrying because they are very much inspired by the global jihadi, Saudi Wahhabi ideology - a strict interpretation of Islam which is being interpreted into political and terrorist activity. What is important in this phenomenon is the radicalization of the already radicalized society in Gaza.

The bottom line is that we are seeing the same pattern of global jihad-oriented groups starting to be active in Gaza. They have carried out some attacks, mostly directed against foreign, Western institutions like the YMCA and the American School. Yet they have played only a marginal role in attacks against Israeli targets.

Hamas in Gaza

I think the situation of Hamas control in Gaza is irreversible. From my reading of Hamas publications in Arabic, it is clear that there is no way back, only ahead, to take control in the West Bank if they become strong enough. Hamas could agree to a hudna (calm) for fifty years, but there will be no recognition of Israel or a cessation of the struggle against it.

If Hamas was ready to act pragmatically, it would no longer be Hamas. It would be something else. And then the frustrated factions within Hamas would break off and join up with the radical global jihadi organizations in Gaza. Those organizations hope to provide a refuge for Hamas radicals who believe that any normalization or pragmatism would be harmful to the Hamas cause.

This is not just my hypothesis. The declarations of Hamas leaders Zahar and Siam have hinted that if Hamas were to lose its real identity, people would shift their loyalties and activities to a more genuine Islamic organization, not a pragmatic, opportunistic, hudna-style one.

Should we talk with Hamas? Is the international community ready to sit down with al-Qaeda? There is no difference. It is a total misrepresentation to say Hamas is like the IRA. There is no political wing of Hamas disconnected from the operational wing. There are no pragmatists to speak to. At the end of the day, those who believe that trying to talk to Hamas is the right way to conduct business here in the Middle East will be in for a big disappointment.

* * *

Col. (res.) Jonathan Fighel is a senior research scholar at the International Institute for Counter Terrorism (ICT). He is also a member of the International Academic Counter Terrorism Community (ICTAC) and serves as a consultant and expert witness for the U.S. Department of Justice on Hamas trials, as well as to private U.S.-based law firms in cases of prosecuting al-Qaeda terrorism. His expertise also includes the Palestinian Authority, Islamist terror groups (Hamas, PIJ, al-Qaeda), funding, Palestinian terrorism and the Palestinian suicide terrorism phenomenon. This Jerusalem Issue Brief is based on his presentation at the Institute for Contemporary Affairs in Jerusalem on December 9, 2008.

This Jerusalem Issue Brief is available online at:

http://www.jcpa.org
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:

2. Parts of Islam ARE evil. I never said all of Islam is evil. There are many aspects of Islam that are beautiful (and parts that are pure evil).
.


You said "Right now Islam is evil". Not "right now parts of Islam are evil". I get your position now, but your post implied something else.
palomino_pony





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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
palomino_pony wrote:
I am flying with the family to Disneyland this afternoon. YVR should be a gong show, but if I cancel, then the terrorists win.


we lose if we continue to act like Islam has nothing to do with this and that these are just people with mental conditions.


Exactly why I said in the same post that I trust some people less than others. My comment that you quoted was meant to be tongue in cheek.

It took no extra time at the airport (security and customs). The additional travel restrictions are that you can only bring one carry-on (used to be two). They also did extra screening at the gate, opening every bag and full pat down. The one carry-on rule sucks because when I travel for work, I have a small bag with my clothes and my laptop. Now I have to shell out to check that second bag.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't get the "if someone else did it 500 years ago, then it's OK for them to do it now" defense. Wrong is wrong. The Crusades used religion as an excuse to carry out atrocities, just as modern terrorists are using Islam as their excuse.

They're both wrong, the difference is the Islamic terror is happening now. Whether their actions reconcile with "true" Islam is irrelevant, they're still doing it in the name of that religion, and we still need to deal with it.
queenmandy85





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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conservatives believe in free enterprise where the business that is most successful should triumph. If this is true for business, is it not also true foor religion and politics? Islam is growing and Christianity is in decline. It's not my preference, but that is free enterprise in the marketplace of ideas.
Craig
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

queenmandy85 wrote:
Conservatives believe in free enterprise where the business that is most successful should triumph. If this is true for business, is it not also true foor religion and politics? Islam is growing and Christianity is in decline. It's not my preference, but that is free enterprise in the marketplace of ideas.


You can't be serious with this statement. If I owned Walmart and I went out and killed (literally) the CEO of Target you think Conservatives would endorse that because "the strongest survived".

This is a debate about terrorism, human rights, the treatment of women and minorities. You think Islam should be able to get away with these abuses? You think that as conservatives we should applaud them?

Wow. Deep breaths Craig. Deep breaths.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bsenka wrote:
I don't get the "if someone else did it 500 years ago, then it's OK for them to do it now" defense. Wrong is wrong. The Crusades used religion as an excuse to carry out atrocities, just as modern terrorists are using Islam as their excuse.

They're both wrong, the difference is the Islamic terror is happening now. Whether their actions reconcile with "true" Islam is irrelevant, they're still doing it in the name of that religion, and we still need to deal with it.


(I know I said I wouldn't post on this thread again but everyone is being pretty civil so I'll take my chances)

Since I'm the one who first brought up the issue of Christian extremism let me first explain how you're all taking it the wrong way. Firstly I am in no means anti-Christian, nor am I against any religion (at least not any I can think of). My main point is that the problem is not a religion itself; it’s when the religion is chosen to be interpreted in a way that preaches radicalism. Relgious extremism wasn’t OK then and it’s NOT OK now. Islamic extremism must be stopped and we must do something about it now.

Again, the reason Christian extremism was brought up is to bear light on the fact that the Quaran and the religion itself aren't enough to make people kill. It's the ideology one chooses to follow. Just as the inquisitors in Spain felt it was their duty to torture all the heretics [WRONG] these jihadis feel it is their duty to kill all the infidels [WRONG]. That was both of those groups interpretation of their religion. The Torah (and I am Jewish myself), for example, has quite a few passages that would make the average North American quiver. However, because the Pharisees won the ideological war over groups like the Saducees and the Zealots, the Oral Torah was able to flourish and some of the harsher passages were passed over without being practiced verbatim. Likewise, if Sufi and Ismaili Islam were more rampant the Islam of today would likely be very different (regardless of whether extremists exist or not). Needless to say, that while Islam is a problem today it doesn't have to be in the future if an anti-extremism movement evolved (likely brought on by improved living conditions for the Muslim world and resulting in a cessation of resentment towards the West). When the Muslim Turks took over the Levant from the Orthodox Christian Byzantines the Jews were ecstatic. Why? Not because Christianity is bad, but because the way the Byzantines chose to practice Christianity made the lives of non-Christians living among their rule unfavourable. Prior to the Spanish Inquisition, Muslims ruled Spain (Al Andalus), an era of prosperity my Israeli Zionist teachers were proud to call the Golden Age. Montreal is a city with a large amount of both European-heritage Jews and Arab World-heritage Jews. And to be quite honest, prior to the issue of Zionism the Arab World Jews have a story that includes much more prosperity and much more tolerance than their European counterparts.

All that being said. My point is simple and I apologize if it wasn’t explained better before. A holy book is not enough to make people do crazy things nor is it enough for a religion to be deemed evil because humans have the ability to interpret, argue that something is no longer applicable and put into context.

Happy New Year everyone!
Craig Smith





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mr12387 wrote:
A holy book is not enough to make people do crazy things nor is it enough for a religion to be deemed evil because humans have the ability to interpret, argue that something is no longer applicable and put into context.


So you are saying that a religion isn't enough to make people do crazy things? I think it is pretty clear that it is since most of these terrorist attacks are in the name of "Allah".

As a side note, did you know it is illegal to convert from Islam to Christianity in Malaysia? That is also based on a book called the Koran. And up until today it was illegal for non-Muslims to use the word "Allah". Pretty crazy stuff courtesy of a book.
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