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Which step?
1
7%
 7%  [ 1 ]
2
28%
 28%  [ 4 ]
3
28%
 28%  [ 4 ]
4
14%
 14%  [ 2 ]
5
21%
 21%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 14

Author Message
BHundo





Joined: 23 Nov 2009
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Location: SW Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:48 pm    Post subject: When does a fetus become a person? Reply with quote

The way I see it there are a few options. Depending on which option you choose, certain rules follow. At which step does the beast deserve rights?

1. Semen and eggs separately (i don't think anyone will pick this one)

2. Conception (aka "The Bang")

3. Fertilization (this takes place like a day after conception... i think?)

4. 3 months in (aka the first trimester)

5. Head pokes out (baby time)

Let me know if I missed a step that you identify with
lucamanfredi





Joined: 31 Dec 1969
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AFAIK the shortest recorded gestation perion for a baby who survived the premature birth is approximately 20 weeks. That's where I would set my cut-off. When there will be a few (I say above ten) recorded cases of survival prior to that date I will adjust accordingly.

I know where this question leads, and I will steer well clear of that argument.

Big Government would argue a person doesn't exist unless a birth certificate has been issued.

IMHO 2 and 3 are the same events, unless we delve into deep philosophical semantics. But that would defeat the practicality of asking the question in the first place.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a question that is impossible to answer with any precision. There are only two ways of approaching it; either you err on the side of caution, and say immediately upon conception, or you pull some random number out of the air.

And if you are going to pull up some nonsensical argument, like who gets charged for murder in the case of miscarriage, well, the same person you charge if you get struck by lightning, or slip in the shower, or have some other fatal accident.

Really, there is not point to asking this question. The only possible outcome is a flame war.
Jason Kauppinen





Joined: 01 Apr 2007
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votes: 5

PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Newborns have rights, and I have yet to encounter an argument that claims otherwise. (But anyone that knows of one... post a link)

What characteristics does a newborn have which make it an entity that has rights?

When do these characteristics develop?
Craig
Site Admin




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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3

If you don't want a baby then use a condom or other birth control. If you can't be bothered then killing any living thing, whether you call it a human being or not, should not be allowed. Stop being lazy, irresponsible, and weak and we don't need to have this conversation.
Craig
Site Admin




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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And why is this topic in the religion forum. What the heck does this have to do with religion?
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:36 pm    Post subject: Re: When does a fetus become a person? Reply with quote

BHundo wrote:
The way I see it there are a few options. Depending on which option you choose, certain rules follow. At which step does the beast deserve rights?


They deserve rights once they are no longer teenagers :-}

I guess I would say when they have their first thought- no clue when that is though.
I agree with the other poster though, if people were not idiots we would not need to have this discussion.
FF_Canuck





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
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Location: Southern Alberta

PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lucamanfredi wrote:
AFAIK the shortest recorded gestation perion for a baby who survived the premature birth is approximately 20 weeks. That's where I would set my cut-off. When there will be a few (I say above ten) recorded cases of survival prior to that date I will adjust accordingly.

I agree; the point of viability outside the womb seems a reasonable starting point for when a seperate human life has begun. It seems that most countries out side of North America that have considered the question seem to settle somewhere around this mark. Obviously, advances in medical science and other economic factors will slowly lower this number.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FF_Canuck wrote:
lucamanfredi wrote:
AFAIK the shortest recorded gestation perion for a baby who survived the premature birth is approximately 20 weeks. That's where I would set my cut-off. When there will be a few (I say above ten) recorded cases of survival prior to that date I will adjust accordingly.

I agree; the point of viability outside the womb seems a reasonable starting point for when a seperate human life has begun. It seems that most countries out side of North America that have considered the question seem to settle somewhere around this mark. Obviously, advances in medical science and other economic factors will slowly lower this number.
What you are really saying is, that as technology advances, the definition of person will change. Really though, that is a nonsequitor (it does not follow); what does the steam engine or penicillin or nuclear fission have to do with deciding who is a person, and what is not?

Look at it another way. Fertilized eggs are frozen and stored, and then later implanted into a woman who wants to have children. They may have existed in that state for days or weeks or months; that is surviving outside the womb.
Some Guy 2.0





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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:40 pm    Post subject: Re: When does a fetus become a person? Reply with quote

fiscalconservative wrote:
BHundo wrote:
The way I see it there are a few options. Depending on which option you choose, certain rules follow. At which step does the beast deserve rights?


They deserve rights once they are no longer teenagers :-}

I guess I would say when they have their first thought- no clue when that is though.
I agree with the other poster though, if people were not idiots we would not need to have this discussion.


Its at six weeks.
mrsocko





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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2

God knew us before we were born. He created the sperm and the egg. He put them together.

Psa 139:13 You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14 I praise you because you are to be feared; all you do is strange and wonderful. I know it with all my heart.
Psa 139:15 When my bones were being formed, carefully put together in my mother's womb, when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there---
Psa 139:16 you saw me before I was born. The days allotted to me had all been recorded in your book, before any of them ever began.
Craig
Site Admin




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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When it feels pain - which is accepted medical fact at 8 weeks...

Quote:
By this age the neuro-anatomic structures are present. What is needed is (1) a sensory nerve to feel the pain and send a message to (2) the thalamus, a part of the base of the brain, and (3) motor nerves that send a message to that area. These are present at 8 weeks. The pain impulse goes to the thalamus. It sends a signal down the motor nerves to pull away from the hurt.

Pain can be detected when nociceptors (pain receptors) discharge electrical impulses to the spinal cord and brain. These fire impulses outward, telling the muscles and body to react. These can be measured. Mountcastle, Medical Physiology, St. Louis: C.V. Mosby, pp. 391-427 "Lip tactile response may be evoked by the end of the 7th week. At 11 weeks, the face and all parts of the upper and lower extremities are sensitive to touch. By 13 1/2 to 14 weeks, the entire body surface, except for the back and the top of the head, are sensitive to pain." S. Reinis & J. Goldman, The Development of the Brain C. Thomas Pub., 1980
crazymamma





Joined: 18 Aug 2007
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Location: The kitchen

PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WTHoodles???????

At what stage does the "BEAST" have rights?

Are you kidding????
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