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Craig
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thurmas wrote:
there are so few rhinos left that they really had little effect on gop policy this past decade


Really? Then how did John McCain (king of all RINOs) get the nomination?
Alan A.





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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Conservative...
You seem to be an educated gentleman. With all due respect, I think you overlooked what I consider to be the core of my argument against yours. Here it is again with some editing and emphasis to clarify if: "Your model of a society evolving on the base of religious values cannot be checked against one that wouldn't have (evolved on the base of religious values), because there's none we know of." In other words, you can say all you want that the liberal values wouldn't be what they are if it hadn't been for christianity or any other religious culture, but I only answer this one word: speculation; we just can't verify your theory because we don't have a placebo to validate it.
Some Guy 2.0





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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan A. wrote:
Dave Conservative...
You seem to be an educated gentleman. With all due respect, I think you overlooked what I consider to be the core of my argument against yours. Here it is again with some editing and emphasis to clarify if: "Your model of a society evolving on the base of religious values cannot be checked against one that wouldn't have (evolved on the base of religious values), because there's none we know of." In other words, you can say all you want that the liberal values wouldn't be what they are if it hadn't been for christianity or any other religious culture, but I only answer this one word: speculation; we just can't verify your theory because we don't have a placebo to validate it.


I disagree fully. Look at any nation that has been communist for a significant amount of time, and you simply don't find the kind of decency in those countries that you do in Western countries.
Alan A.





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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justin Hoffer wrote:
Alan A. wrote:
Dave Conservative...
You seem to be an educated gentleman. With all due respect, I think you overlooked what I consider to be the core of my argument against yours. Here it is again with some editing and emphasis to clarify if: "Your model of a society evolving on the base of religious values cannot be checked against one that wouldn't have (evolved on the base of religious values), because there's none we know of." In other words, you can say all you want that the liberal values wouldn't be what they are if it hadn't been for christianity or any other religious culture, but I only answer this one word: speculation; we just can't verify your theory because we don't have a placebo to validate it.


I disagree fully. Look at any nation that has been communist for a significant amount of time, and you simply don't find the kind of decency in those countries that you do in Western countries.


Justin, come on. This is one of the most enduring myths of the last century among a bunch of religious people. It doesn't hold water for a millisecond. Don't get me started on all the atrocities committed around the world since caveman till now, by countries and people that were *not* communist.
strong conservative





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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:56 pm    Post subject: great debate Reply with quote

This is an interesting debate and I applaud the respect shown by both sides. For full disclosure, I consider myself a Christian, not born into the faith but committed to it personally. In my view, no Christian can be born into the faith, it must be a personal decision to follow it. I can't speak for other religions.

That said, it is undeniable that communists are almost always atheists. However, atheists are not always communists. Consider that communists do not believe in God because they believe that humanity can be perfected through the right policies and programs designed to create equality and an eventual workers' utopia.

There is no need for God in communism if you believe that society can be perfected through the acts of mankind. Christians, and other religions to some extent, believe that we are flawed (ie sinful) and thus need God's forgiveness because He is perfect and we are not.

We can govern ourselves through wisdom, practice, and insight, but we can never achieve perfection.

I think you can see what I'm trying to get at. The perfect state under communism is a kind of god-like entity that solves problems, provides for everyone, and sustains life.

Adam Corolla is hardly someone to use as an intellectual argument in favour of atheism. The prior posters who made the connection between Nazism, communism, and other political ideologies who embraced atheism are on point in pointing out that atheism is responsible for far more deaths and destruction than any religion.

Communism = 100 million dead and counting
Dave Conservative





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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan

Way to go trying to stifle debate with your claim of no "placebo." Of course there is no placebo since aside from the West where secularism has been the recent trend, religion continues to play an integral part in shaping the everyday functions of society in most other regions in the world.

This is not mere speculation, as there is a great deal of multidisciplinary literature in the social sciences and humanities, which show quite credible historical evidential patterns of religious values shaping the predominant cultural values of the societies in which they are situated.

Obviously, most atheists remain loath to admit this.

Even in the case of Russia, there is credible historical evidence suggesting that the collectivist values that have historically predominated in Russia had their roots in Russian Orthodoxy.

Again, if you are still skeptical, I will refer you to Weber’s The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, to see just how greatly Protestant values and beliefs helped shaped the development of Capitalism in Western Europe. Also see Weber’s The Russian Revolution.

How also do you explain the fact that the communist faith never received enough significant traction in Western countries to tip the political balance of power? One simple answer is that the collectivist values of Communism did not jive with the Western Christian values of individualism that were predominant in the culture of the West.
Alan A.





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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Conservative wrote:
This is not mere speculation, as there is a great deal of multidisciplinary literature in the social sciences and humanities, which show quite credible historical evidential patterns of religious values shaping the predominant cultural values of the societies in which they are situated.


If your reference always comes down to some "social science" analysis cherry-picked in some books that you think support your views, then I'm done arguing with you on this topic. I've earned diplomas in both humanities and applied science in university... most of the former is absolute bs, opinions, ideology. No wonder why our journalists and our politicians lack rigor in their activities: they studied humanities and they think they can understand, judge, and change the world with that.

Cheers.
Craig
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan A. wrote:
If your reference always comes down to some "social science" analysis cherry-picked in some books that you think support your views, then I'm done arguing with you on this topic. I've earned diplomas in both humanities and applied science in university... most of the former is absolute bs, opinions, ideology. No wonder why our journalists and our politicians lack rigor in their activities: they studied humanities and they think they can understand, judge, and change the world with that.


You expected to find hard scientific explanations in a religion forum?
Dave Conservative





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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan A. wrote:
If your reference always comes down to some "social science" analysis cherry-picked in some books that you think support your views, then I'm done arguing with you on this topic. I've earned diplomas in both humanities and applied science in university... most of the former is absolute bs, opinions, ideology. No wonder why our journalists and our politicians lack rigor in their activities: they studied humanities and they think they can understand, judge, and change the world with that.


Your post above shows the lengths that most atheists will go to before acknowledging the importance of religion in society, even those that are secularized.

Generally, I try to avoid selection bias when presenting arguments. Overall, I was merely trying to point out some references as starting points.

Regards
Some Guy 2.0





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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankly, I can't see how freedom can be separated from Christianity or Judaism. Any time a nation separates itself fully from the Judeo-Christian religions, it always turns out bad.
BHundo





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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
...the importance of religion in society, even those that are secularized.


just out of curiosity, why is religion important in Canada today?
Dave Conservative





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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BHundo


First, I would ask that you refer to my previous posts to get some context in my main argument.

I will sum this up briefly here:

Even in the West (Western Europe and North America), where secularism has been a recent ongoing trend, Western Christian values (from Protestantism and Roman Catholicism) were a prime historic influencing variable shaping the historical development of Western societies cultural development.

In other words, although Western liberal values are now secularized, Western values and practices of individual freedom, individual equality, rule of law, private property and limited government were directly infused by the religious values of Western Christianity that were historically predominant in all Western countries.

By virtue of Canada being a Western Country, such arguments equally apply to Canada.

It is simply foolhardy to try and deny that Canada’s historically Western Christian heritage did not have any effect on the historical development of Canada’s political-economic institutions.

Do you think the core values of Canada were simply created one day by someone going into the "values store" and simply randomly picking liberal values off the shelf?

Most Canadian Prime Ministers had strong Christian convictions including the Fathers of Confederation. Do you think they were not influenced at all by the predominant Western Christian religious-cultural context in which they were situated?
mrsocko





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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhundo wrote:
Quote:
just out of curiosity, why is religion important in Canada today?


Just looking at the countries of the world I find that those that most have respect for Judeo-Christian values are the most weathy and democratic(US,Canada). I also find that those former Christian nations that have strayed the farthest from Judeo Christian ideals are the ones suffering the most from internal strife and decay of personal freedoms(Britain, France).

You should thank the remnant of God fearing men and women in this country who pray for God's blessing on our nation, for your freedoms and prosperity.
Craig Smith





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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BHundo wrote:
Quote:
...the importance of religion in society, even those that are secularized.


just out of curiosity, why is religion important in Canada today?


Our entire system of justice is based on Judeo-Christian values. The teaching of those values will lead to more law-abiding citizens now and in the future. It is why I moved my children to a Catholic school last year even though they are not Catholic.

I fully realize that this, or any other answer I provide, will not be good enough for you but I am not trying to convince YOU of anything.
Craig Smith





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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
Just looking at the countries of the world I find that those that most have respect for Judeo-Christian values are the most weathy and democratic(US,Canada).


Yep - the states that adhere to Islam are largely destitute (with the exception of those sitting on massive pools of oil) and the atheistic countries have no freedom. But the left continues to bash Christianity :roll:

Prosperity and freedom and enemies of the left.
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