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don muntean





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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: If you really belive... Reply with quote

gc wrote:
I'm not suggesting that all Christians should be perfect, but are all Christians doing everything they can to help people?


What kind of crack is that? Believe it or not - Christians are the one faith group that does the most charity by and large - I'm not saying that the others don't have charities but - Christian charities are numerous.

You're trying to hold Christians to a standard that is the exception - not the rule. Is it the collective that you're holding to this 'ideal' standard or the individual Christian?

Sometimes people forget that scriptural quotes and references must be taken in context to the original audience time and circumstances. To say that a particular scriptural statement has the exact literal import and application - to a contemporary audience - isn't very enlightened.

Why are you so apparently down on Christians?
gc





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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:14 pm    Post subject: Re: If you really belive... Reply with quote

don muntean wrote:
gc wrote:
I'm not suggesting that all Christians should be perfect, but are all Christians doing everything they can to help people?


What kind of crack is that? Believe it or not - Christians are the one faith group that does the most charity by and large - I'm not saying that the others don't have charities but - Christian charities are numerous.

You're trying to hold Christians to a standard that is the exception - not the rule. Is it the collective that you're holding to this 'ideal' standard or the individual Christian?

Sometimes people forget that scriptural quotes and references must be taken in context to the original audience time and circumstances. To say that a particular scriptural statement has the exact literal import and application - to a contemporary audience - isn't very enlightened.

Why are you so apparently down on Christians?

I'm not saying that Christians don't do great things.

What I am saying is that if I was convinced that my actions on earth determined whether I would experience an eternity of bliss or an eternity of unimaginable pain, I would do absolutely everything humanly possible to help others, I would never get angry with anyone else etc. I would make huge personal sacrifices knowing that they would be repaid infinitely in the afterlife. As I said before, I'd be somewhere in between Ned Flanders and Mother Teresa. Even if it made no difference to the afterlife, I would do those things because that is clearly what God wants.
Of course, this is all in theory - who knows what I would actually do - but I don't see how I could not do all of those things knowing what awaits in the afterlife.
gc





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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:17 pm    Post subject: Re: If you really belive... Reply with quote

don muntean wrote:
Sometimes people forget that scriptural quotes and references must be taken in context to the original audience time and circumstances. To say that a particular scriptural statement has the exact literal import and application - to a contemporary audience - isn't very enlightened.

I suppose my post was more directed to people who take a literal interpretation of the bible.

Since you are not a literalist, may I ask you how do you decide which parts of the bible to take literally and which to not take literally? I think it's pretty clear in the new testament that giving to the poor is a good thing, as it says it over and over. If we can't believe that, that what can we believe?
Craig
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: If you really belive... Reply with quote

gc wrote:
don muntean wrote:
Sometimes people forget that scriptural quotes and references must be taken in context to the original audience time and circumstances. To say that a particular scriptural statement has the exact literal import and application - to a contemporary audience - isn't very enlightened.

I suppose my post was more directed to people who take a literal interpretation of the bible.

Since you are not a literalist, may I ask you how do you decide which parts of the bible to take literally and which to not take literally? I think it's pretty clear in the new testament that giving to the poor is a good thing, as it says it over and over. If we can't believe that, that what can we believe?


The Koran calls for Muslims to kill non-believers. Are you saying that any Muslim who does not do so is not a good Muslim?
Some Guy 2.0





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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rules of the bible are something to live by, not to die by.

If you don't take care of yourself and only take care of others, your life will be short. How are you going to be of any help to anyone if you let yourself waste away while helping others?
Craig
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matthew 25:14-30...

14 "Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. 15 To one he gave five talents[a] of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16 The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. 17 So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. 18 But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.

19 "After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.'

21 "His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

22 "The man with the two talents also came. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.'

23 "His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

24 "Then the man who had received the one talent came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.'

26 "His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

28 " 'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29 For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
gc





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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justin Hoffer wrote:
The rules of the bible are something to live by, not to die by.

If you don't take care of yourself and only take care of others, your life will be short. How are you going to be of any help to anyone if you let yourself waste away while helping others?

Mother Teresa lived to be 87.

You would think that God would take care of those doing God's work.
don muntean





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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:14 pm    Post subject: Re: If you really belive... Reply with quote

gc wrote:
don muntean wrote:
Sometimes people forget that scriptural quotes and references must be taken in context to the original audience time and circumstances. To say that a particular scriptural statement has the exact literal import and application - to a contemporary audience - isn't very enlightened.

I suppose my post was more directed to people who take a literal interpretation of the bible.

Since you are not a literalist, may I ask you how do you decide which parts of the bible to take literally and which to not take literally? I think it's pretty clear in the new testament that giving to the poor is a good thing, as it says it over and over. If we can't believe that, that what can we believe?


I like how in the Hebrew tradition there are four logical and rational ways to interpret scriptures and connected writings.

There are literal interpretations there are allegorical interpretations there are homelitical interpretations and there are mystical interpretations - it's important to know the difference and apply them accordingly.

It's easy to decide - when interpreting - look at the original time and circumstances of the message and where possible - apply them to our lives in context to our time and circumstances.

Take for instance the commandments not to murder not to commit adultery not to steal etc., one can easily see that the context remains the same for us as it was for the original audience.

The literal interpretation is obvious and irrelevant of time and circumstances.

Or one can look at certain narrations in the Bible - like Adam and Eve - we don't give a literal interpretation to those narrations but rather an allegorical and a mystical interpretation.

The messages of purity self denial and austerity are still yet different in that they are not to be taken and applied literally by a general contemporary audience but rather they are viewed in context with their past tense - with an interpretation as an 'ideal' - not a rule.

A contemporary audience is reasonably expected to emulate - not imitate the 'ideal' .

It remains that you're being overly critical of fundamentalist Christians - saying that since they apparently preach everything in the bible literally - they are to be derided because they don't they try to literally live this 'ideal' which Jesus taught.

You imply that this is 'hypocrisy' and is evidence that God is a human invention!

Even the most 'literalistic' of groups are much less so than the approach of Christianity in the past. Do some homework?

Like all faiths - Christianity has been undergoing changes over the centuries and in the last hundred or so years there's a secular humanist atheistic assault on God and all religion [especially Christianity and Judaism] and that impacts the interpretation and practice of these faiths by their contemporary adherents.

What standards of 'perfection' do you place on adherents of secular humanism?

You seem to be convinced that secular humanist rationalizations stand above any manner of 'inspired' rationalism.

What is expected of those that 'zealously' follow that secular humanism mindset?

Seeing the lack of 'perfection' in ethics and morality in the secular humanist world - can we be critical of their 'literal' views regarding the superiority of exclusively 'human' reason ethics and morality?

I find it interesting that the people who deride religion also deny God.

One can understand why people might get frustrated with seemingly conflicted religions and become 'agnostic' in the worst - yet - the atheistic secular humanist goes that step further and disconnects God from the entire equation.

Notwithstanding the teachings of the assorted religions - we CAN experience God in various personal capacities - something that we don't need any religions to experience.

All we have to do is think about the 'higher power' all the time - let it be there in our day to day awareness and we'll see God in all sorts of places. Religions are a means to an end not an end in themselves.

Amusingly even the atheist is 'God conscious' as they think about God all the time too...only their focus is how to avoid God in everything all the time! :lol:


Last edited by don muntean on Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:29 pm; edited 5 times in total
mrsocko





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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I suppose my post was more directed to people who take a literal interpretation of the bible.


I take the Bible literally and I can prove that Hell does not exist. Every person who ever lived will go to heaven. The only way to heaven according to the New testament is by accepting Jesus as your Saviour. The Bible says every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Every person who has ever lived will eventually accept Jesus as Saviour.

All the references to hell in the Bible where in reference to the coming judgement of the Jewish nation which occurred in 70 A.D. The hell referenced(translated) is the Valley of Gehenna which was the garbage dump where fired constantly burned outside Jerusalem where 400,000 bodies of slaughtered Jews where burned after the Romans took the city. Look up Gehenna in Wikipedia. It's an amazing read.

Most of the church up until the 4the century beleived all would be saved and you can look up quotes from the early church fathers to prove this. This truth was lost because of mistranslations and a downplaying of the Jewishness of the New Testament. The church took all the warnings of destruction upon themselves when Jeus was actually talking to his people and warning them of the Judgment which befell them in 70 A.D.

This truth is being rediscovered, especially on the internet(tentmaker .org) and eventually will be the source of a reformation that will make Luther's seem small.


Last edited by mrsocko on Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
Forward





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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc I like to know. Are you truly asking questions in order to gain insight or are you trying to debate?
gc





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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
I take the Bible literally and I can prove that Hell does not exist. Every person who ever lived will go to heaven. The only way to heaven according to the New testament is by accepting Jesus as your Saviour. The Bible says every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Every person who has ever lived will eventually accept Jesus as Saviour.

Interesting, I didn't know that. Where in the bible does it say this?
gc





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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forward wrote:
gc I like to know. Are you truly asking questions in order to gain insight or are you trying to debate?

I'm just looking for answers to something that I don't understand.
Forward





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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck with it then. Sorry I couldn't answer your questions. Basically they are the same ones I've asked myself many times over.

Being Christian isn't easy (at least for me). It's never knowing whether you are doing enough. It's watching your own behavior and being self critical. It's seeing other people (including other Christians) behave in ways you don't approve of but you have to watch how you treat them because you're not supposed to judge.

It's also gritting your teeth with anger forcing yourself to STFU while your beliefs are ridiculed by people who believe ANY behavior no matter how slimy, unethical, dishonest or disgusting is OK if only they can justify it in the courts :roll: or in the media.

Like I said good luck.

P.S.
Quote:
If you're more interested in childish insults, expect to be ignored


Quite often I AM interested in childish insults. THAT IS NOT GOOD CHRISTIAN BEHAVIOR. But sometimes the temptation is just too damned great to resist. :twisted:
Some Guy 2.0





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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find Judaism to be a bit easier than that... Interesting how different and similar the two religions are.
Craig
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
Forward wrote:
gc I like to know. Are you truly asking questions in order to gain insight or are you trying to debate?

I'm just looking for answers to something that I don't understand.


I gave you the answer. You ignored it.

Here it is (from the new testament)...


26 "His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

28 " 'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29 For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
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