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mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
Reputation: 131.2
votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
Quote:
The religious right are often their own worst enemy as they seem fervently dedicated to forcing their morals and their values on everyone around them and are eager to use the coercive power of government to do so.

Why is it not enough to live an upstanding life, spreading the light of your faith through your church, your friends and your community? Is your faith so poor that you feel it needs laws to force others to accept your way of thinking?

Perhaps I'm a poor Christian because I don't want to cram my beliefs down everyone's throats? I don't know...


It's a tough issue to try to get across I think I did it better in the post below. Here you seem to be assuming I want to force my morals on others. I don't rember trying to cram my beliefs down anyones throat. You reacted like a Toronto Star columnist :P

Then Mac wrote:
Quote:
mrsocko wrote:
This is what I what a discussion on. Is it forcing your beliefs on someone if you refuse to rent them your business space or hire them for a job because you feel their lifestyle is immoral. This is your own personal building or business remember. Can a religious person use it as a means to express their personal moral and religious beliefs since increasingly they cannot do so in the public sphere?

Good question. I don't have an answer. I believe the SCC has supported property rights when such cases reached them but I'm not certain.

mrsocko wrote:
In Canada I don't think you can. Would that change if property rights were enshrined in the Constitution. You hear all the time about people in the States shooting burglars or even trick or treators(extreme example) for going on their property and getting off on charges. They have property rights in their constitution.

Property rights were in Dief-de-Chief's Bill of Rights but Trudeau made sure to remove property rights from his flawed Constitution because they interfered with his vision of socialism.

mrsocko wrote:
They have freedom from government restricting religious expression. We don't. Should we?

The First Amendment of the American Constitution...

Quote:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."


Section 2 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms...

Quote:
2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.

The only difference is we're stuck with assorted human rights legislation and the HRCs across the country. Golden intentions; very bad idea.

mrsocko wrote:
They also have freedom of expression enshrined. Do we? If the HRC's are any indication we don't. And I know they are just kangaroo courts but they have powers and if used correctly by certain groups they can chill politically incorrect dissenting voices.

As above... We've allowed the leftards to steal our liberties on at a time...

mrsocko wrote:
Is freedom of religion and expression a right if the only place you can ascert said right is in the confines of your own home. In Canada you can't even do that sometimes.

I hear you...

-Mac


Glad we are on the same page again. But your first reaction shows how divisive religious expression/liberty can be. And this on a CPC forum. Imagine on Lib Logs. :shock:
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
Reputation: 156.2Reputation: 156.2
votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Social conservative values are, to state it plainly, the values that built the western world into the cultural and economic powerhouse that it is today. When you tamper with a formula that has produced nearly limitless success for so long, in my books you are taking a rather large, and very hard to justify, risk.

That is why I believe in God, Queen, and country, in that order. That is why I believe that marriage is the union, for all time, of one man to one woman, for the purpose of having and raising children. That is why I do not believe in free and easy sex, or no fault divorce, or any of the other crap that came out of the summer of love. Historians, from whatever culture that replaces ours, will trace the beginning of our decline to that moment. The boomer generation did more damage than they will ever know.
teenagetory





Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Posts: 369
Reputation: 30.4Reputation: 30.4Reputation: 30.4
votes: 1
Location: Halifax

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's what I always think, the greatest generation was awesome in everything they did except parenting the Boomers :P
DavidK





Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1520
Reputation: 68.5
votes: 5
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

teenagetory wrote:
That's what I always think, the greatest generation was awesome in everything they did except parenting the Boomers :P


My Grandparents have been married 60+ years I'll this new age crap doesn't make sense to them.
SFrank85





Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2269
Reputation: 59.8
votes: 4
Location: Toronto - Scarborough Southwest

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We also have to remember, the political elites and the hippie movement were still a small minority of the population, and still are. However what they did get since the late 1960’s was political power, and they have not been afraid to use it. They were the ones protesting “the man, and the machine” while everyone else was busy raising their families, while the radical left (which today has become the mainstream left) had all the time in the world, because they did not have any responsibility of raising children, or they did not care because they bought into the theory that there is no such thing as good or evil.

We in the west have let these people have power for far too long. We need to take it back before all is lost in our society.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
Reputation: 104
votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
It's a tough issue to try to get across I think I did it better in the post below. Here you seem to be assuming I want to force my morals on others. I don't rember trying to cram my beliefs down anyones throat. You reacted like a Toronto Star columnist :P

I contemplated not responding to this thread because I didn't want to be taken as being anti-religious or anti-so-con. The truth is I would much rather deal with a so-con (inflexible principles) than a progressive (no principles)... but rather than have a worthy debate go nowhere, I addressed the question.

You've taken my remarks personal, perhaps with some justification since you're presenting yourself as being socially conservative... but, from what I've seen of your posts, you're much more moderate and pragmatic than most social conservatives. I like to think the only Red Star columnist I could be compared with would be Chantal Hebert... :)

mrsocko wrote:
Glad we are on the same page again. But your first reaction shows how divisive religious expression/liberty can be. And this on a CPC forum. Imagine on Lib Logs. :shock:

Religious freedom and other liberties need not be divisive but the leftards treat so-cons very poorly and the so-cons often react in a manner draws negative attention, neatly drawing attention away from the leftards' snide remarks and putting the so-cons on the defensive.

-Mac
CPP





Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 244
Reputation: 10.5
votes: 1
Location: Too close to Quebec

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
mrsocko wrote:
It's a tough issue to try to get across I think I did it better in the post below. Here you seem to be assuming I want to force my morals on others. I don't rember trying to cram my beliefs down anyones throat. You reacted like a Toronto Star columnist :P

I contemplated not responding to this thread because I didn't want to be taken as being anti-religious or anti-so-con. The truth is I would much rather deal with a so-con (inflexible principles) than a progressive (no principles)... but rather than have a worthy debate go nowhere, I addressed the question.

You've taken my remarks personal, perhaps with some justification since you're presenting yourself as being socially conservative... but, from what I've seen of your posts, you're much more moderate and pragmatic than most social conservatives. I like to think the only Red Star columnist I could be compared with would be Chantal Hebert... :)

mrsocko wrote:
Glad we are on the same page again. But your first reaction shows how divisive religious expression/liberty can be. And this on a CPC forum. Imagine on Lib Logs. :shock:

Religious freedom and other liberties need not be divisive but the leftards treat so-cons very poorly and the so-cons often react in a manner draws negative attention, neatly drawing attention away from the leftards' snide remarks and putting the so-cons on the defensive.

-Mac


Each generation always blames the last for all of the worlds problems. 'Why cant they just be more like us and everything will be alright' say some Seniors and the Juniors usually respond 'you just dont understand my generation'

As a senior, I find the younger generation more tolerant & open minded in many ways.
Craig Smith





Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 244
Reputation: 42Reputation: 42Reputation: 42Reputation: 42

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CPP wrote:
Each generation always blames the last for all of the worlds problems.


That's not true. My parents recognize that their parents generation was the greatest generation just as I do. My grandparents didn't rake up billions in government debt that their children would have to pay (save for the war effort). The era of selfishness began in the 1960's and continues to this day.
Craig Smith





Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 244
Reputation: 42Reputation: 42Reputation: 42Reputation: 42

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CPP wrote:
I find the younger generation more tolerant


You use the word "tolerant" as if it is a good thing. I prefer the term "apathetic" or "valueless" myself - and yes, the younger generation definitely fits that bill.
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