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mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
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votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:36 pm    Post subject: Social Conservativism Reply with quote

Laws are on the books that are impossible for social conservatives to change(abortion, same sex marriage)

Could a law be created so social conservatives can exercise there mral authority on their own personal property. Is it legal to deny employment or housing/tenancy to people/businesses he/she felt were morally unfit.

Employers have morality clauses in employment contracts. Should this be expanded to other areas and could this be mandated by law to be acceptable(meaning you cannot be dragged before a human rights tribunal or court for kicking a promiscuous woman out of her apartment)?

It would allow social conservatives to voice there opposition to things they see as immoral but only in areas that they control such as who they hire or house in buildings they own.


Last edited by mrsocko on Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:57 pm; edited 2 times in total
fiscalconservative





Joined: 08 Dec 2008
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votes: 6

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see it now. "Appartment for rent: No Soddomites sluts or baby murders!!"

Unless the persons behavior interferes with the social conservatives life style or business I would say no.
If the womans behavior does not leave her appartment, then its none of the landlords business. If she insists on sun bathing topless in public view, well, thats different. If I was evicted because someone solely because of my relious beliefs, I would be very pissed.
Mattman





Joined: 24 Jun 2009
Posts: 42
Reputation: 23.4Reputation: 23.4

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there are likely restrictions in what sort of clauses can be put into a morality clause.

I don't know how you'd write a clause prohibiting a promiscuous woman from renting from you. The rental legislation in Ontario is shockingly pro-tenant anti landlord (and they wonder why there is an affordable housing shortage)
First you'd have to write it in a way that isn't discriminatory to not run afoul of the rental laws.
Then you'd have to prove she violated it, and that her violation is sufficient to warrant an eviction.

Generally when considering things such as jobs and housing and their importance the government, tribunals and courts have a desire to side to the benefit of the employee or tenant.
Cool Blue





Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 3130
Reputation: 114.9
votes: 10
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think this would pass the charter test.
DavidK





Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1520
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votes: 5
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking as a social conservative more than anything else… I don’t think that in today’s world (and certainly not in North America), you will see a lot of policy put forth to appease so-cons.

The line between morality and right and wrong, at least socially, has pretty well been erased. Or at the very least, we’re told it is improper and politically incorrect to say what’s right and what is not. The problem with that idea is that there have always been laws and morals to tell people what they can and cannot do. We’re being told that laws like that are unnecessary, and that we can’t ‘impose our morals’ – So what happens after that?
FF_Canuck





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
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Location: Southern Alberta

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Private entities should be able to contract on whatever terms they wish, without interference from government, including the open discrimination that such a regime would allow. Buisiness owners are free to turn away customers, customers are free to find other alternatives and advocate for others to do so. That said, I don't you'll ever see anyone openly advocating for such a change.
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
Reputation: 131.2
votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If I was evicted because someone solely because of my relious beliefs, I would be very pissed.


What the hell are you talking about? What's immoral about religion? This thread is not saying you can discriminate against a persons religion or colour. It is saying that if a Conservative Christian does not want to rent his house to two married gay guys he doesn't have to. Or if a woman has 5 kids from 5 different fathers and a stream of men in and out of the apartment all day you can kick her out.

With this thread I am purposely trying to be provocative. I wouldn't care if I rented to gays or if a women had 10 kids from 10 fathers. But should social conservatives have the right to exercise their view of morality in regards to their own private property?
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
Reputation: 104
votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The religious right are often their own worst enemy as they seem fervently dedicated to forcing their morals and their values on everyone around them and are eager to use the coercive power of government to do so.

Why is it not enough to live an upstanding life, spreading the light of your faith through your church, your friends and your community? Is your faith so poor that you feel it needs laws to force others to accept your way of thinking?

Perhaps I'm a poor Christian because I don't want to cram my beliefs down everyone's throats? I don't know...

-Mac
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
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votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
Quote:
Is your faith so poor that you feel it needs laws to force others to accept your way of thinking?

Perhaps I'm a poor Christian because I don't want to cram my beliefs down everyone's throats? I don't know...


Like I said I was hopin to upset people.

But if Conservative Christian morals cannot be imposed in the public spere(Manger scene in a public building) do these type of restictions also apply to private property items?

If a Christian landlord denies an adult or gay bookstore the right to rent his building he should not be brought before a HRC. If a minister wants to write a letter to the editor denouncing gay marriage he should not be brought before an HRC?

Presently in Canada you have no say as to who you can rent to, what you can write or who you can hire. In the name of religious freedom should a person be able to deny access to his own personal property or be able to speak out against things he/she deems immoral? Should this right be made into law?


Last edited by mrsocko on Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
fiscalconservative





Joined: 08 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:

With this thread I am purposely trying to be provocative. I wouldn't care if I rented to gays or if a women had 10 kids from 10 fathers. But should social conservatives have the right to exercise their view of morality in regards to their own private property?


If you rent out a property, I don't think its your "private property" anymore. If you spend your time monitoring how many men go in the appartment and who the childrens father is, you need a life.

What if I ran the only gas station in Kapuskasing and decide I did not want to serve fags ?
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
Reputation: 131.2
votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What if I ran the only gas station in Kapuskasing and decide I did not want to serve fags ?


Fags is a derogatory slur and I would ask that you not use it on this board.

Just because I pose a controversial topic does not mean you have to have a hissy fit and start a pissing match.

I said I wouldn't have a problem renting to gays or promiscuous women. But what if there was something that did offend my morality. If it is my property can I deny the right to access.

Quote:
If you rent out a property, I don't think its your "private property" anymore. If you spend your time monitoring how many men go in the appartment and who the childrens father is, you need a life.


People on this board talk all the time about enshrining property rights in the constitution. What would this mean in regards to personal rights to a property.


Last edited by mrsocko on Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
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votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
Like I said I was hopin to upset people.

But if Conservative Christian morals cannot be imposed in the public spere(Manger scene in a public building) do these type of restictions also apply to private property items?

If a Christian landlord denies an adult or gay bookstore the right to rent his building he should not be brought before a HRC. If a minister wants to write a letter to the editor denouncing gay marriage he should not be brought before an HRC?

Presently in Canada you have no say as to who you can rent to, what you can write or who you can hire. In the name of religious freedom should a person be able to deny access to his own personal property or be able to speak out against things he/she deems immoral? Should this right be made into law?

All of the things you're complaining about are manifestations of political correctness... the overbearing imposition of selective censorship in a warped attempt to avoid insulting anyone... ever... (exception: Christians)...

Public buildings are paid for by all citizens, not just Christians. I'm okay with seasonal religious displays. You'll notice I didn't say seasonal Christian displays? For that matter, if the atheists want to put up seasonal displays of their beliefs (nothing whatsoever), I'm okay with that too.

We're all aware the HRCs are out of control... making up the rules as they go along... but that's got nothing to do with law. It's got everything to do with political correctness. Rather than adding more laws, I'm all for gutting the legislation which gives the HRCs any kind of authority.

-Mac
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
Reputation: 131.2
votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm okay with seasonal religious displays. You'll notice I didn't say seasonal Christian displays? For that matter, if the atheists want to put up seasonal displays of their beliefs (nothing whatsoever), I'm okay with that too.


Your not okay with seasonal Chistian displays but you are okay with atheists seasonal displays. :?

I can imagine what type of display that would be. Perhaps a sign on a city bus telling the world how stupid Chistian beliefs are, right around Christmas time.

Why are an atheists beliefs acceptable to you while a Christians beliefs are not. Just because the Chistians beliefs have something to do with God?

The atheists beliefs have something to do with God to!
potan





Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 582
Reputation: 36.3Reputation: 36.3Reputation: 36.3Reputation: 36.3
votes: 2
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
The religious right are often their own worst enemy as they seem fervently dedicated to forcing their morals and their values on everyone around them and are eager to use the coercive power of government to do so.

Why is it not enough to live an upstanding life, spreading the light of your faith through your church, your friends and your community? Is your faith so poor that you feel it needs laws to force others to accept your way of thinking?

Perhaps I'm a poor Christian because I don't want to cram my beliefs down everyone's throats? I don't know...

-Mac


Why is believing that certain things are right or wrong qualify as "cramming" my beliefs down everyone's throats? You might not mean that, but in our relativist culture for the most part believing the statement that "Jesus is the only way to heaven" or "homosexuality is a sin" qualifies as forcing my religion on others. I am sick of this bigoted rhetoric, lets face it, conservative christians in Canada face more discrimination than fundamentalist muslims or any other group in Canada. I feel like a second class citizen in my own country having to face the things that I face everyday because of my beliefs.
Mattman





Joined: 24 Jun 2009
Posts: 42
Reputation: 23.4Reputation: 23.4

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that they need to fix the balance between allowing people to act freely, and forcing others to permit unacceptable behaviour.

The pressure to force "acceptance" of difference has gotten to the point that it is seriously infringing on freedom of speech.

Yes there are certain issues where I think certain speech is unacceptable, however there are attempts to restrict other speech.

There is a difference between speech for political discussion of controversial topics, and speech intended to incite harm to certain people.
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