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Libertas





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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you just responding with gibberish now?
crazymamma





Joined: 18 Aug 2007
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Location: The kitchen

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do you call a white guy who goes out and PROMOTES white people and white programs and listens to white people talk about old darky. You call them racist.

What do you call a black guy who goes out and PROMOTES black people and black programs and listens to black people talk about old crackers. You call him President Obama.
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edmund Onward James wrote:


This is a good forum, open, but when those with limited or bankrupt vocabularies resort to the pejoravtive then it will become much like Richard Dawkins forum.


People here do not have limited vocabularies- they just have the wisdom to use them in an appropriate manner.

While I have not spent three years in a creative writing program as you claim to have, I have been forced to do some techinical writing.
One of the first things they tell you in any writing manual is to consider your audience. You should use vocabularly appopriate to that audience.

That way, we avoid making utterly confusing posts like this:

Edmund Onward James wrote:

As I stated in your other comment. You exposed yourself through the reflection of the obsidian mirror


90% of the people reading this probably doesn't know what an obsidian mirror is. Another 8 percent understand what an obsidian mirror is (like a crystal ball - I think), but don't have a clue what you are refering to. Its probably some reference to a poem that nobody has read or wants to read.

Everyone here has a different background. I could use lots of 50 cent words and technical jargon that most people here would not understand - but whats the point ?
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
fiscalconservative wrote:
I don't think the police officer was racist, but I think he should have just walked away. Who was Gates threatening ?

Tell you what, fc... The officer took what he felt to be appropriate action. He has been fully supported for the arrest by the other officers who were on scene, including black officers. You figure, operating with only on information gleaned through the media, you know better than the guys on scene do?


Mac wrote:

Obama is being roundly criticized for second-guessing the cops and jumping to conclusions based on incomplete information. You've just done exactly the same thing.

-Mac


What I am saying is that even if you believe the police officers story, I don't think he should have arrested the guy.
There was clearly a misunderstanding, Gates was most likely being an jerk. My question is, who was being harmed ? What would have happened if the officer just got in his car and left ?
There was no criminal, no crime, no threat, just a little angry man being a jerk. The man was on his property and clearly felt as if he had been agrieved.

It may have been legal to arrest him, but it was not good judgement.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
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votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edmund Onward James wrote:
Mac... you are informed and wise, whereas one or two supposed conservatives who think they know are somewhat limited.

I appreciate the compliment but I have to say... I believe each of us on these forums brings something to the table, even those who don't agree with me. Personal growth isn't inspired by agreement but by challenge.

fiscalconservative wrote:
What I am saying is that even if you believe the police officers story, I don't think he should have arrested the guy.
There was clearly a misunderstanding, Gates was most likely being an jerk. My question is, who was being harmed ? What would have happened if the officer just got in his car and left ?
There was no criminal, no crime, no threat, just a little angry man being a jerk. The man was on his property and clearly felt as if he had been agrieved.

It may have been legal to arrest him, but it was not good judgement.

What misunderstanding? The police officer was investigating a suspicious incident reported by a citizen. That's called "doing his job" isn't it?

There's no question that Gates was being a jerk- Gates admits as much and claims he was doing so with reason... and he's not sorry for doing so and would do so again in the same circumstances.

With the benefit of hindsight, it is easy to say Gates was unlikely to have harmed anyone but the police officer made his decision with the knowledge he had at the time. His fellow officers, including black officers, agreed with his decision at the time and continue to support that decision. In my opinion, that shoots holes in your "not good judgment" assertion.

If you read the accounts of what happened, it is clear Gates was arrested for disorderly conduct outside of his home as he followed the cop outside, still screaming & haranguing and accusing the cop of being a racist.

I'm not familiar with the penal code in Cambridge but here is Canada, the Criminal Code has something similar called "causing a disturbance" and, yes, you can be arrested... and charged... for causing a disturbance.

Quote:
175. (1) Every one who

(a) not being in a dwelling-house, causes a disturbance in or near a public place,

(i) by fighting, screaming, shouting, swearing, singing or using insulting or obscene language,

(ii) by being drunk, or

(iii) by impeding or molesting other persons

This kind of legislation is put in place to deal with exactly these kind of situations. The "test" is pretty simple- was Gates acting in a manner which would cause a normal, prudent citizen to believe that behaviour was a marked departure from normal behaviour? If provoked, most folks will respond but as soon as that provocation is removed, they will cease disturbing behaviour. When the cop backed off, Gates continued his tirade, followed the cop outside and was subsequently arrested. Textbook "cause disturbance" case.

In many cases like this, the charges are either dropped or never formalized because the arrest was for the purpose of ending the disturbing behaviour, thus restoring public peace. Many people don't realize arrest does not automatically mean charges must be laid.

-Mac
Cool Blue





Joined: 21 Sep 2006
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Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Libertas wrote:
Quote:
It's not anti-intellectual, it's anti-elitism.


Which is really the same thing. Would you rather we just have completely mediocre people doing everything?


Not necessarily. I'm using the term "elitism" as refering to the "ruling class" or those who see themselves as such.

For example, Belinda Stronach is part of the Canadian elite, but she is hardly an intellectual.
Edmund Onward James





Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 1317
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votes: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MAC...

My experience as a human resource consultant, headhunter, observer and communicator, uncoils my radar senses, when those who are pretenders or agitators rather than informative people with facts and opinions that are worth debate make counter-comments that are attack-style. That is usually the style of the left, extreme-left, anarchists or inexperienced youth. Like those who voted for Obama. Or the Liberals in Canada because... the Conservatives are... are... bad.

When there were approximately 30 consultants in my firm, with partners, none were Yes Men or Women. Also...

Facing venture capital firms and private investors is a challenge (Watch the Dragon's Den on CBC); in addition, as a novelist I am constantly challenged by all who think they are writers because they can read something or other.

Nothing wrong with inviting many points of view, but, as I mentioned the Canadian Coalition for Democracies had a problem with their site. Either from apologists and appeasers with different names, but same persons, or the left flooding their humanistic points of view. Of course there was also that homogeneous possiblility. Like kinds gaze at each others navels.

Politics, including foreign affairs, is complex and not easy, though for many it should be simple. But it ain't. So we hope people from outside the realm or those who have taken sincere interest can inform, and assist us to question things.

Onward the satirist
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:


What misunderstanding? The police officer was investigating a suspicious incident reported by a citizen. That's called "doing his job" isn't it?


Gates felt he was a victim of racial profiling and that the officer was bothering him because he was a black guy in a rich neighbourhood. Had Gates had time to think about it a day later and had all the facts, he might not have felt the same way. Its hard for either side to back down now that its a national issue, but if the cop just walked away, this would have all been forgotten about.

Quote:

I'm not familiar with the penal code in Cambridge but here is Canada, the Criminal Code has something similar called "causing a disturbance" and, yes, you can be arrested... and charged... for causing a disturbance.

Quote:
175. (1) Every one who

(a) not being in a dwelling-house, causes a disturbance in or near a public place,

(i) by fighting, screaming, shouting, swearing, singing or using insulting or obscene language,

(ii) by being drunk, or

(iii) by impeding or molesting other persons

This kind of legislation is put in place to deal with exactly these kind of situations. The "test" is pretty simple- was Gates acting in a manner which would cause a normal, prudent citizen to believe that behaviour was a marked departure from normal behaviour? If provoked, most folks will respond but as soon as that provocation is removed, they will cease disturbing behaviour. When the cop backed off, Gates continued his tirade, followed the cop outside and was subsequently arrested. Textbook "cause disturbance" case.


Like I said, it was "legal" to arrest him, but I don't think it was wise. There is a huge difference between some drunk guy in a crowd yelling "f*ck the police" and some guy persuing what he feels is a legitimate grivience on his own front lawn after the police officer asked him to step out of his house.
He should have given him the benefit of the doubt and simply left alone.

I know its difficult to be polite and back down when you have some jackass botherig you. In this forum, I have frequently snapped back at people who have insulted me, rather than just ignore it. If you are a police officer, however, I think you have to be a little be wiser than I am. In this case, I think the guy was arrested because he was an ass, not because he posed any sort of threat.

Quote:

In many cases like this, the charges are either dropped or never formalized because the arrest was for the purpose of ending the disturbing behaviour, thus restoring public peace. Many people don't realize arrest does not automatically mean charges must be laid.

The arrest did end the disturbance (but created a bigger one). Simply getting in the car would have ended it too.
What did the officer think, if he left the guy would be standing on his front lawn swearing at the air?
Edmund Onward James





Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 1317
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votes: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another aspect: There are people like Gates (Sharpton, Jackson, Wright, the list goes on) who thrive for situations such as that. Where they can attack with a race card. A logical thinker would not have reacted like that, especially where 3 police officers (white, hispanic, black) came because of a valid report and concern by a new neighbour.

The fact that it was Gates's home I might think he felt intruded, but, with good manners and proof it would have been over. But no... he had Obama as a friend, who also over-reacts when it comes to the core of his voters and financial supporters, and, yes because he is half-black, therefore why not let the have it.

Are you aware how the federal government, and local government, have unleashed an investigation on the poor woman who reported this? Evidently, the left will not give up, just like they didn't with Sarah Palin, which will come back to bite them in the... you figure what spots.
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
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votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read an interview with gates and he said the first thing the cop did was ask him to step out onto the porch in a very agitated tone. Gates said no thinking he could be in some danger if he did.

The officer asked for his ID which he presented in the kitchen. Gates then asked for
the officers badge # 6 or 7 times a request the police officer denied. Gates said he was on the phone the university security at the time asking them to come fix his door. It would be interesting if the person on the line could corraborate his story.

He followed the Police officer out of the house all the while asking for his badge #. Big mistake. Cuffs on and thrown in jail(after he asked for his cane) :shock:

If I was in my house and a beligerent police officer came to my door I would be concerned too. I think I would have called the police and confirmed that this was indeed a police officer. I don't think Gates over reacted at all. He had done nothing wrong, was thrown in jail degraded in ront of his neighbours. Shameful.
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edmund Onward James wrote:


Are you aware how the federal government, and local government, have unleashed an investigation on the poor woman who reported this?


No, do you have a source ? I know she has disagree with the officer on some (minor)points, but I don't think she is the target of an investigation.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
Reputation: 104
votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fiscalconservative wrote:
Gates felt he was a victim of racial profiling and that the officer was bothering him because he was a black guy in a rich neighbourhood. Had Gates had time to think about it a day later and had all the facts, he might not have felt the same way. Its hard for either side to back down now that its a national issue, but if the cop just walked away, this would have all been forgotten about.

Actually, you don't know what Gates felt (none of us do), you reiterating what Gates said he felt. What he felt and what he says he felt could be two completely different things. Does Gates deserve your trust? What did he do to earn it?

We know, from several sources including Gates, that his reaction and behaviour fit the aforementioned offence yet you insist of second-guessing the cop. Does Sgt. Crowley deserve your mistrust? What did he do to earn it?

fiscalconservative wrote:
Like I said, it was "legal" to arrest him, but I don't think it was wise. There is a huge difference between some drunk guy in a crowd yelling "f*ck the police" and some guy persuing what he feels is a legitimate grivience on his own front lawn after the police officer asked him to step out of his house.

If a criminal just made forcible entry into a house and were suddenly confronted by a cop, what would he do? If he couldn't run, he would say it was his house and demand the cop get off the property. If the cop refused, he would get agitated... very agitated...

Cop responds to a report of a door being forced open; possible home invasion or burglary. He arrives at the scene and finds a house with a damaged door and a man inside who says it's his house and gets agitated when asked to prove it.

As for asking Gates to step outside, you're not thinking tactically. How many weapons could have been just inside that door? Safety first, especially in the Land of the Gun.

fiscalconservative wrote:
He should have given him the benefit of the doubt and simply left alone.

If the cop had done so and Gates was a burglar, the police would be accused of being incompetent and the home owner would sue them. Gates acted suspiciously and was treated as a suspect. Colour of skin was irrelevant.

fiscalconservative wrote:
I know its difficult to be polite and back down when you have some jackass botherig you. In this forum, I have frequently snapped back at people who have insulted me, rather than just ignore it. If you are a police officer, however, I think you have to be a little be wiser than I am. In this case, I think the guy was arrested because he was an ass, not because he posed any sort of threat.

Actually, it's very easy to back down and de-escalate a volatile situation if you're mature and professional. Junior officers sometimes struggle with the urge to have the last word but experience quells that urge. What is harder to learn is to admit when you're wrong. That's why if I find that I'm mistaken here on the forums, I make a point to acknowledge as much... but that's an aside...

Sgt. Crowley did back off to de-escalate the situation but Gates followed him outside and continued his abusive tirade. Remember? Text-book case of causing a disturbance?

fiscalconservative wrote:
The arrest did end the disturbance (but created a bigger one). Simply getting in the car would have ended it too.
What did the officer think, if he left the guy would be standing on his front lawn swearing at the air?

The fallout which you're describing as being the bigger disturbance is not a continuation of the original incident; it's the consequences. You're again second-guessing the actions of the police officer and, worse yet, you're jumping to a conclusions based of "what if" scenarios you've invented.

So what if the cop had just got in his car and drove off? Who knows? It didn't happen. You're speculating rather than addressing the original issue which is the inappropriate reaction of Gates. By doing so, you're justifying his actions.

-Mac
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac, I think you are misunderstanding me. Let me clairify.

Up until arresting Gates, I don't have a problem with the way the police acted. I don't disbelieve Crowley . Gates on the other hand was a jerk all the way through. How much of a jerk is disputed.

When I said they should have "just given him the benifit of the doubt" I meant AFTER they had identified him as the legal resident of the home. Obviously, the honor system for criminals would not work.

You are correct that Gates met the test for disorderly conduct. However, people commit crimes all the time they are not arrested for. How many people you busted for jay walking ? adultery ? I speed every time I drive a car, but I have never been pulled over. Why, because I am not worth it.

My point is that police should be arresting criminals, people who are threats. Was Gates right when he felt he was being targeted because he was black ? No. Did he feel that he was being target because he was black ? Well, unless you can come up with a better explanation of his behavior, I am going to believe him.

There was a problem here. Some disabled 5'7 Harvard professor was screamng at a police officer. The police would have run his id and realised he had no record of violence (correct me if I am wrong). I know walking away is a hard thing to do, but thats what the police officer should have done. Gates pissed him off (hey, he would have pissed me off too) and thats why he was arrested.
Cool Blue





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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An important detail some are missing: the lock to the front door had been broken open.

So imagine you're a cop:

- you get a call concerning a possible break-in
- you arrive at the house and the front door is broken open
- there is an aggressive man inside the house who is refusing to give proof of residence
- the man claims the door has been broken for weeks and despite living there he never repaired it

What is going through your mind? Would this man be credible to you?
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
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votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fiscalconservative wrote:
Well, unless you can come up with a better explanation of his behavior, I am going to believe him.

I understood your points, fc... I just don't agree with you. I've offered explanations of the reasons why I don't agree whereas you've simply reiterated your points yet again.

As for a "better explanation", although I'm not sure why you feel I should have offer excuses for Gates' inexcusable behavior, Edmund Onward James offered an explanation which mirrors my thinking.

Edmund Onward James wrote:
There are people like Gates (Sharpton, Jackson, Wright, the list goes on) who thrive for situations such as that. Where they can attack with a race card.

In fact, the fallout of this situation has been rather interesting to watch as the racist attitudes (or reverse-racist, if you prefer) of many public figures have been exposed... as well as some rather markedly anti-police attitudes...

For instance, is there any particular reason you want to believe a guy who you acknowledge acted like a screaming idiot yet you have no issue second-guessing the police officer when all indications are the cop in question is above reproach whereas Gates has made a career of black activism?

-Mac
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