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teenagetory





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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we should legalize marijuana but taxing will make it similar to cigarettes in Nova Scotia: that is everybody buys the illegal ones made on indian reserves because the government over taxes and over regulates them.
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

teenagetory wrote:
I think we should legalize marijuana but taxing will make it similar to cigarettes in Nova Scotia: that is everybody buys the illegal ones made on indian reserves because the government over taxes and over regulates them.


They are buying the ones on the Indian reserves because Indians are allowed ignore the law.
teenagetory





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Location: Halifax

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, but if cigarettes weren't taxed the obscene amount they are now, there wouldn't be any need or want for the illegal smokes. I think this is a great example of demand creating its own supply. White people need cheap smokes. Indians start selling their tax free smokes to white people.
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

teenagetory wrote:
Yes, but if cigarettes weren't taxed the obscene amount they are now, there wouldn't be any need or want for the illegal smokes. I think this is a great example of demand creating its own supply. White people need cheap smokes. Indians start selling their tax free smokes to white people.


Ever see anyone die from COPD ?
crazymamma





Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 1011
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votes: 14
Location: The kitchen

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fiscalconservative wrote:
teenagetory wrote:
Yes, but if cigarettes weren't taxed the obscene amount they are now, there wouldn't be any need or want for the illegal smokes. I think this is a great example of demand creating its own supply. White people need cheap smokes. Indians start selling their tax free smokes to white people.


Ever see anyone die from COPD ?


I don't mean to seem like an insensitive bi*ch, but you do know that EVERYBODY dies right?

You do know that everyone who smokes will not die from COPD?

Have you ever seen a person splatt from a parachute not opening? ATV roll over?

Ever hear about obesity? How more folks are becoming obese, developing heart conditions, diabetes? Cholesterol? Hypertension? All from eating inappropriate amounts of the wrong foods? Fat lazy folks raising food, TV, IPOd, Computer, video games addicted kids? More folks dieing from this scourge of our society.

None of our business, everybody is addicted to something, just some folks are lucky that their addiction is legal and so far politically and socially acceptable. I'm not interested in saving folks from them selves buy paying for more cops, robbing their pockets further and causing more hardship then the substance it's self.

There really are no graceful ways to go, I see no need to control others just so you can breath easy with a clear conscience.
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crazymamma wrote:
fiscalconservative wrote:
teenagetory wrote:
Yes, but if cigarettes weren't taxed the obscene amount they are now, there wouldn't be any need or want for the illegal smokes. I think this is a great example of demand creating its own supply. White people need cheap smokes. Indians start selling their tax free smokes to white people.


Ever see anyone die from COPD ?


I don't mean to seem like an insensitive bi*ch, but you do know that EVERYBODY dies right?

You do know that everyone who smokes will not die from COPD?

Have you ever seen a person splatt from a parachute not opening? ATV roll over?

Ever hear about obesity? How more folks are becoming obese, developing heart conditions, diabetes? Cholesterol? Hypertension? All from eating inappropriate amounts of the wrong foods? Fat lazy folks raising food, TV, IPOd, Computer, video games addicted kids? More folks dieing from this scourge of our society.

None of our business, everybody is addicted to something, just some folks are lucky that their addiction is legal and so far politically and socially acceptable. I'm not interested in saving folks from them selves buy paying for more cops, robbing their pockets further and causing more hardship then the substance it's self.

There really are no graceful ways to go, I see no need to control others just so you can breath easy with a clear conscience.


The cigarette industry has to get children addicted to survive. Its marketed to children every where it had the chance. Its products are extremly addictive. Its products cost the health system bilions.

The big difference with the guy sitting on the computer eating a twinkie is that the guy likes eating the twinkie. Most smokers would quit if they could.
crazymamma





Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 1011
Reputation: 71.8
votes: 14
Location: The kitchen

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fiscalconservative wrote:
crazymamma wrote:
fiscalconservative wrote:
teenagetory wrote:
Yes, but if cigarettes weren't taxed the obscene amount they are now, there wouldn't be any need or want for the illegal smokes. I think this is a great example of demand creating its own supply. White people need cheap smokes. Indians start selling their tax free smokes to white people.


Ever see anyone die from COPD ?


I don't mean to seem like an insensitive bi*ch, but you do know that EVERYBODY dies right?

You do know that everyone who smokes will not die from COPD?

Have you ever seen a person splatt from a parachute not opening? ATV roll over?

Ever hear about obesity? How more folks are becoming obese, developing heart conditions, diabetes? Cholesterol? Hypertension? All from eating inappropriate amounts of the wrong foods? Fat lazy folks raising food, TV, IPOd, Computer, video games addicted kids? More folks dieing from this scourge of our society.

None of our business, everybody is addicted to something, just some folks are lucky that their addiction is legal and so far politically and socially acceptable. I'm not interested in saving folks from them selves buy paying for more cops, robbing their pockets further and causing more hardship then the substance it's self.

There really are no graceful ways to go, I see no need to control others just so you can breath easy with a clear conscience.


The cigarette industry has to get children addicted to survive. Its marketed to children every where it had the chance. Its products are extremely addictive. Its products cost the health system bilions.

The big difference with the guy sitting on the computer eating a twinkie is that the guy likes eating the twinkie. Most smokers would quit if they could.


Are you serious?

Most obese folks That have Diabetes, high blood pressure and high Cholesterol would also QUIT IF THEY COULD, they even Dream of getting off their butts and walking. Lots of them try every Monday to start again.

Your post betrays your bias.

Captain crunch, foot loops, KD. " fruit" roll ups, processed foods are all advertised to younger children, they are all poison if eaten too much. preservatives, empty sugary calories devoid of nutritional value.Costs the health system BILLIONS, Juvenile diabetes and obesity are the number one growing medical issue in this and other countries. Ya think the water is the problem? What was your point again?

Are you under the impression just because the government has made it illegal to have private health care that gives you the right to use that as an excuse to further curtail a person's freedom of choice?

First it is illegal to use your freedom of choice not to be a burden to "universal" almost useless no health care where everyone has equally deficient service, then you force folks to ever increasingly Hoover their wallet for the inefficient bureaucratic unfair health care system, now you want to use that as an excuse to make products illegal or at least very cost prohibitive, punish folks whose activities YOU don't approve of so they won't actually need the services by law they can only use at their own expense because you don't like what they ail from? Really?

Talk about the tyranny and mockery of so called democracy. It would be funny if it wasn't so ass back wards pathetic.[/i]
fiscalconservative





Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Posts: 1043
Reputation: 49.9Reputation: 49.9Reputation: 49.9Reputation: 49.9Reputation: 49.9
votes: 6

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crazymamma wrote:
fiscalconservative wrote:
crazymamma wrote:
fiscalconservative wrote:
teenagetory wrote:
Yes, but if cigarettes weren't taxed the obscene amount they are now, there wouldn't be any need or want for the illegal smokes. I think this is a great example of demand creating its own supply. White people need cheap smokes. Indians start selling their tax free smokes to white people.


Ever see anyone die from COPD ?


I don't mean to seem like an insensitive bi*ch, but you do know that EVERYBODY dies right?

You do know that everyone who smokes will not die from COPD?

Have you ever seen a person splatt from a parachute not opening? ATV roll over?

Ever hear about obesity? How more folks are becoming obese, developing heart conditions, diabetes? Cholesterol? Hypertension? All from eating inappropriate amounts of the wrong foods? Fat lazy folks raising food, TV, IPOd, Computer, video games addicted kids? More folks dieing from this scourge of our society.

None of our business, everybody is addicted to something, just some folks are lucky that their addiction is legal and so far politically and socially acceptable. I'm not interested in saving folks from them selves buy paying for more cops, robbing their pockets further and causing more hardship then the substance it's self.

There really are no graceful ways to go, I see no need to control others just so you can breath easy with a clear conscience.


The cigarette industry has to get children addicted to survive. Its marketed to children every where it had the chance. Its products are extremely addictive. Its products cost the health system bilions.

The big difference with the guy sitting on the computer eating a twinkie is that the guy likes eating the twinkie. Most smokers would quit if they could.


Are you serious?

Most obese folks That have Diabetes, high blood pressure and high Cholesterol would also QUIT IF THEY COULD, they even Dream of getting off their butts and walking. Lots of them try every Monday to start again.

Your post betrays your bias.

Captain crunch, foot loops, KD. " fruit" roll ups, processed foods are all advertised to younger children, they are all poison if eaten too much. preservatives, empty sugary calories devoid of nutritional value.Costs the health system BILLIONS, Juvenile diabetes and obesity are the number one growing medical issue in this and other countries. Ya think the water is the problem? What was your point again?

Are you under the impression just because the government has made it illegal to have private health care that gives you the right to use that as an excuse to further curtail a person's freedom of choice?

First it is illegal to use your freedom of choice not to be a burden to "universal" almost useless no health care where everyone has equally deficient service, then you force folks to ever increasingly Hoover their wallet for the inefficient bureaucratic unfair health care system, now you want to use that as an excuse to make products illegal or at least very cost prohibitive, punish folks whose activities YOU don't approve of so they won't actually need the services by law they can only use at their own expense because you don't like what they ail from? Really?

Talk about the tyranny and mockery of so called democracy. It would be funny if it wasn't so ass back wards pathetic.[/i]



Umm, if you are trying to compare the addictive qualities of a twinkie to tobbacco, you are naive.
Niotine is second only to Heroin I think.
It is also not about punishing people whose behavior I don't like. Its about making them pay for the medical costs.
It is also about discouraging kids from smoking.
Just like taxes on wages depress the economy, taxes on ciggarettes depress smoking, espcially among the most vulnerable.
crazymamma





Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 1011
Reputation: 71.8
votes: 14
Location: The kitchen

PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fiscalconservative wrote:
crazymamma wrote:
fiscalconservative wrote:
crazymamma wrote:
fiscalconservative wrote:
teenagetory wrote:
Yes, but if cigarettes weren't taxed the obscene amount they are now, there wouldn't be any need or want for the illegal smokes. I think this is a great example of demand creating its own supply. White people need cheap smokes. Indians start selling their tax free smokes to white people.


Ever see anyone die from COPD ?


I don't mean to seem like an insensitive bi*ch, but you do know that EVERYBODY dies right?

You do know that everyone who smokes will not die from COPD?

Have you ever seen a person splatt from a parachute not opening? ATV roll over?

Ever hear about obesity? How more folks are becoming obese, developing heart conditions, diabetes? Cholesterol? Hypertension? All from eating inappropriate amounts of the wrong foods? Fat lazy folks raising food, TV, IPOd, Computer, video games addicted kids? More folks dieing from this scourge of our society.

None of our business, everybody is addicted to something, just some folks are lucky that their addiction is legal and so far politically and socially acceptable. I'm not interested in saving folks from them selves buy paying for more cops, robbing their pockets further and causing more hardship then the substance it's self.

There really are no graceful ways to go, I see no need to control others just so you can breath easy with a clear conscience.


The cigarette industry has to get children addicted to survive. Its marketed to children every where it had the chance. Its products are extremely addictive. Its products cost the health system bilions.

The big difference with the guy sitting on the computer eating a twinkie is that the guy likes eating the twinkie. Most smokers would quit if they could.


Are you serious?

Most obese folks That have Diabetes, high blood pressure and high Cholesterol would also QUIT IF THEY COULD, they even Dream of getting off their butts and walking. Lots of them try every Monday to start again.

Your post betrays your bias.

Captain crunch, foot loops, KD. " fruit" roll ups, processed foods are all advertised to younger children, they are all poison if eaten too much. preservatives, empty sugary calories devoid of nutritional value.Costs the health system BILLIONS, Juvenile diabetes and obesity are the number one growing medical issue in this and other countries. Ya think the water is the problem? What was your point again?

Are you under the impression just because the government has made it illegal to have private health care that gives you the right to use that as an excuse to further curtail a person's freedom of choice?

First it is illegal to use your freedom of choice not to be a burden to "universal" almost useless no health care where everyone has equally deficient service, then you force folks to ever increasingly Hoover their wallet for the inefficient bureaucratic unfair health care system, now you want to use that as an excuse to make products illegal or at least very cost prohibitive, punish folks whose activities YOU don't approve of so they won't actually need the services by law they can only use at their own expense because you don't like what they ail from? Really?

Talk about the tyranny and mockery of so called democracy. It would be funny if it wasn't so ass back wards pathetic.[/i]



Umm, if you are trying to compare the addictive qualities of a twinkie to tobacco, you are naive.


No I don't think so, nice try ignoring a perfectly socially acceptable way of ruining the health of our youth, a whole life style that sucks up a huge and ever increasing amounts of our heath care dollars.
Quote:

Niotine is second only to Heroin I think.


I too have heard this.

Do you think we should be charging taxes on heroin so folks will just give it up because it costs will depress the demand for it??? Sounds like a brilliant idea don'tcha think?

Quote:
It is also not about punishing people whose behavior I don't like. Its about making them pay for the medical costs.


Now your talking like a Conservative. Let poeple pay for what they want to use, let them pay for their own health care, let them pay for the products they wish to. Nobody should have to pay for other's consequences of their behaviour, they can pay for their own, right?

But I bet you didn't actually mean to say that did ya? :wink: Your into selective groups paying for their own behaviours while other behaviours that are distructive get a pass and paid for by everybody else. Sweet.


Quote:
It is also about discouraging kids from smoking.Just like taxes on wages depress the economy, taxes on cigarettes depress smoking, especially among the most vulnerable.


And this makes the circle complete back to teenagetory's statement.

Taxes only depress the legal smoking of cigarettes. It is already illegal for kids to smoke and yet they do, in fact I have heard that smoking among youths is once again an ever growing problem. Why you might ask?

Would it have anything to do with the excessive, hypocritical taxation of cigarettes, which has spawned a every increasingly widely available cheap black market smokes? Those smokes whose contents are not regulated? That are only costs 15 or 20 bucks a carton?

Hmmmmmm...I don't think black market sellers are too interested in checking ID, I'm thinking that kids that are addicted or just want to are going to have almost no trouble scooping 20 bucks for a carton, be it allowance or a quick trip to lift it from their parents wallet.

20 for a carton vs. the current 10 a pack. 20 dollars for illegal smokes they can get just about anywhere from a friend of a friend, vs 10 bucks for a pack at a store where they will be asked for ID.....
crazymamma





Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 1011
Reputation: 71.8
votes: 14
Location: The kitchen

PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too funny and how apropos,

seems some sort of scientific study was done and guess what?


http://content.healthaffairs.o.....5.w822/DC1

http://www.reason.com/blog/show/135052.html

Smokers save money in the long run, who knew?

Fat folks and smokers are actually less of a financial burden to the lowly taxpayer then your average Joe.

Seems they may use up more per year but because they on average DIE much earlier, they bow out quicker, use less geriatric medical aid and alleviate stress on the CPP system. Over their lifetime they cost much less.
fiscalconservative





Joined: 08 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crazymamma wrote:


Are you under the impression just because the government has made it illegal to have private health care that gives you the right to use that as an excuse to further curtail a person's freedom of choice?


I don't in any way see how the two are related.

crazymamma wrote:

First it is illegal to use your freedom of choice not to be a burden to "universal" almost useless no health care where everyone has equally deficient service, then you force folks to ever increasingly Hoover their wallet for the inefficient bureaucratic unfair health care system, now you want to use that as an excuse to make products illegal or at least very cost prohibitive, punish folks whose activities YOU don't approve of so they won't actually need the services by law they can only use at their own expense because you don't like what they ail from? Really?

Talk about the tyranny and mockery of so called democracy. It would be funny if it wasn't so ass back wards pathetic.[/i]


Well, to quote Churchill, democracy is the worst system in the world, except all the others. I think government run health care is the same thing. It sucks, but the alternatives are worse.
I live right next to the US border, and your jaw would drop if you knew how much goes into utter waste over there. On my morning commute, I get to listen to two hospitals have a pissing match over emergency room wait times. Another tries to get me to go there because "we have computerized perscriptions so nobody will make an error". They all seem to imply my life is safer at theirs than the others. One states I should go to their emergency room because its better (as opposed to closer).

Lets take a case of a someone who is really sick and is run to the closest emergency room (even if its not in his HMO's "network"). The hospital evaluates him and wants to perform as many tests as possible. They need to phone his HMO for permission. The HMO wants the hospital to do as few tests as is reasonable. Finally, the hospital decides to treat him. They need the HMO's permission. The HMO decides that they would rather treat him at their own hospital (because they think the other hospital will run a whole bunch of tests that are not 100% necessary). The person is then put in an ambulance to be sent to another hospital (in his HMO) where he is then evaluated by another set of doctors. Now the doctors there want to perform as few tests as possible because it costs them money - if the health insurer owns that hospital In rare cases, people have died in transit.

The problem here is that everybody in the system has goals besides that of the well being of the patient. This then gives you a legal system where people run around spending billions in health care related legal bills. The bottom line is that the one shinning example of "free enterprise"health care costs more and delivers less.

Our biggest problem here is that the health care we have is abused. Too many people run to the doctor anytime they or their kids have the flu. I know someone who says they keep running into so and so and the emergency room - I want to slap them and say "YOUR ARE BOTH HEALTHY!!". But our system does not really discourage abuse.

This is what I would do. Preventative stuff is free. Kids are free (up to 18, or maybe 21 if in school). Reform the medical system to discourage "clinics". Train nurses to deal with colds and the flu. A kid with sniffles does not need to see a doctor unless a nurse thinks its necessary.
Anything else would be pay as you go, but with only a limited collection mechanism-possibly through the tax system. You would have to pay up to 10% of your income each year on your taxes to pay down your health debt. This would discourage patients from abusing the system while still not handcuffing some poor kid who gets leukemia at 25.
You could buy any insurance you want, but the insurer would not run hospitals or dictate care - only pay the bills. The government could offer insurance along the lines of the current medical system, but it would have to break even.
Family doctors would be allowed to "opt out" of the system - but they would have to be all out. Most specialities would be allowed to as well.

Quote:
Quote:

Niotine is second only to Heroin I think.


I too have heard this.

Do you think we should be charging taxes on heroin so folks will just give it up because it costs will depress the demand for it??? Sounds like a brilliant idea don'tcha think?

Look at the price of heroin and look at the price of tobbacco. Look at the number of people who regularly use heroin and the number that regularly use tobbacco. People consume less of the more expensive addictive item.

BTW increasing prices do lower smoking. As you said earlier - youth smoking is rising with falling prices for illegal smokes.

Quote:

Quote:
It is also not about punishing people whose behavior I don't like. Its about making them pay for the medical costs.


Now your talking like a Conservative. Let poeple pay for what they want to use, let them pay for their own health care, let them pay for the products they wish to. Nobody should have to pay for other's consequences of their behaviour, they can pay for their own, right?

But I bet you didn't actually mean to say that did ya? :wink: Your into selective groups paying for their own behaviours while other behaviours that are distructive get a pass and paid for by everybody else. Sweet.
[/quote]

Well, I will admit, I am more of a pragmatist than a conservative. We get a lot more bang for our buck in terms of health care than the US does (and we have one of the least effecient public systems).
Years ago in New York, the fire departments were all private. If you did not belong to that fire department, they would let your house burn. Of course this made a joke out of response times because six private fire departments would respond from all over just to see if that plume of smoke came from one of their customers. Of course, if you had a bunch of uninsured houses next to each other, the block could burn while six fire trucks packed up and went home.
Private enterprise does a lot better job at managing most things, but not everything.

Quote:


And this makes the circle complete back to teenagetory's statement.

Taxes only depress the legal smoking of cigarettes. It is already illegal for kids to smoke and yet they do, in fact I have heard that smoking among youths is once again an ever growing problem. Why you might ask?



Which brings a complete circle back to my point - cigarette smuggling exists at the level it does because the govrernments does not enforce the laws against organized crime.
Look at the price of pot and look at the price of illegal cigarettes. Why is illegal pot more exensive than legal cigarettes ? Because it is hard to grow and market. The government knows exactly where all the illegal cigarrettes are produced. They could close those factories tommorrow.
Its true there will always be some smuggling, but if you enforce the laws it will raise the price of the illegal cancer stick to above that of the taxed cancer stick.

Quote:

Hmmmmmm...I don't think black market sellers are too interested in checking ID, I'm thinking that kids that are addicted or just want to are going to have almost no trouble scooping 20 bucks for a carton, be it allowance or a quick trip to lift it from their parents wallet.

20 for a carton vs. the current 10 a pack. 20 dollars for illegal smokes they can get just about anywhere from a friend of a friend, vs 10 bucks for a pack at a store where they will be asked for ID.....


Black market sellers may not be interested in checking ID, but nothing is preventing someone from selling legal cigarettes to minors. I know a guy who went back to highschool for an extra year because he could make more selling single sticks than he could working.
crazymamma





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votes: 14
Location: The kitchen

PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you still don't get it do you? .

Forcing folks to use a product, not allowing an alternative to that product and then penalizing them, charging them more for using that product because you don't like their activity is .....charming abuse of power.

You can only eat at eight, you can only eat if you stand on one foot, give us all your money, you can only eat if your hungry because you have done nothing we deem could possibly make you hungry. Brillant.

You may find issues with the American health care system but I can tell you when I bring my child to a hospital across the boarder they get seen, by a doctor, not just a bored listless triage nurse, but a real doctor in a half an hour, not ten, no eight, six or 5 hours after we walk in the door, but one half hour.

You may be right about HMO's. But who do you think makes decisions about health care here? Bureaucrats. Folks who have a job, a very well paid union and all the benefits at your expense, jobs. These little folks are always deciding who and what gets funding. At least in the free enterprise system you can change your provider, you can use a public shaming campaign or you can do what all Canadians do and crawl in a hole and feel shame for being impatient and unco-operative by wanting timely service. You have options. here put up with it and die a good comrade.


Of course they know where the illegal smokes are being made, but "news flash" making them is not a crime, it is a right of the natives, it's not even a crime for them to sell them among themselves. But for some bizarro moral outrage reason it is a crime to sell them off native land and sell them to the non-natives. Talk about keeping a brother down.

Another democratic oxy-moronic example where the laws for some Canadians are not exactly the same for others.

Nice of you to totally ignore my last post that puts to bed your whole "we need the smokers to pay for their health care because they cost so much and drain the system".

Duly noted.
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