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fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:22 pm    Post subject: Foreign legion ? Reply with quote

I was wondering if Canada should try to create something along the lines of the French Foreign Legion
It woud solve a number of problems It would free up some money. Tapping the global talent pool, we could get better recruits. We could stop lowering the standards for recruits because we would need fewer Canadian soldiers.
It might lower opposition to deploying the military - fewer funerals in the news when someone is brought back to their home town. Less discontent because a family is overseas.
Also, a more multcultural military would probably make a better military for overseas deployment. They would be more used to living without are creature comforts and would have a better understanding of the culture and language.

You would think their would be a question about getting these people to fight for Canada, but if you look at the French and British experiences, they have been a great success.
Craig
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have discussed this previously. I think it is a great idea. It would empower foreigners to solve their own problems (with our help). Southern Sudan should be the first place this is employed - give the Christians weapons and train them.
FF_Canuck





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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might be an interesting way to handle some refugee claimants and other immigrants who have colorful pasts. But you're kidding yourself if you think this would reduce anti-war sentiments - French citizens still account for 24% of their Legion, and the Spanish version is closer 60%, IIRC. Never mind the spin certain people would put on deployments ('Old white men send visible minorties to die' ... etc). Considering our manpower limitations, we might be better off focusing on recruitment to the regular CF for the near future - the biggest problem (or so I'm told) is in training and retaining skilled trainers, and creating a whole new regiment presents a problem in that regard.
Libertas





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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It might lower opposition to deploying the military - fewer funerals in the news when someone is brought back to their home town. Less discontent because a family is overseas.


This sums up why I'm opposed to the idea of a foreign legion. Nothing showcases the decay of a society when we hire mercenaries to fight our battles for us, this indicates that Canadians no longer believe in duty or sacrifice.

I myself am supportive of allowing more free immigration between the Commonwealth nations [Australia, Hong Kong, Canada, New Zealand, Great Britian, etc.]. However this idea that we should institute a foreign legion to lower opposition to deploying the military is disconcerting.
Libertas





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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Considering our manpower limitations, we might be better off focusing on recruitment to the regular CF for the near future - the biggest problem (or so I'm told) is in training and retaining skilled trainers, and creating a whole new regiment presents a problem in that regard.


I'm a currently serving member of the CF and I can tell you that alot of the problems we have are due to bureaucracy. Whether it be training, postings, component transfers, occupational transfers, etc.
IanM





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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We should look at other alternatives than a 'Foreign Legion' within the Canadian Forces.

The Armed Forces has considerable sources of manpower in which are untapped.

1 - The Cadet Instructor Cadre and the Canadian Cadet Movement.
2 - The Supplimentary Reserve.
3 - Army / Navy / Air Reserve.
4 - Civilians and Contractors.
5 - Other Commonwealth Forces.

These five pools of manpower could help solve many of our problems, let me explain how.

1 - Cadet Instructor Cadre members are not allowed to serve outside of the Cadet Movement, These are very dedicated people, often university students. Or retired members of the armed forces. There is no reason why we can't employ 25%-50% of them in Administrative and Support roles in the armed forces, thus freeing up regular army and reserve forces for more deployment roles or to help fix the manpower shortages. Personally, I'd like to see at least 50% of Recruiting Office Staff, and 20% of all Base Administrative Staff come from the CIC.

With Cadets, we could also employ them on a Summer basis, especially those older than 15-16. Not in any sort of field role, but as clerks, runners, drivers, storemen, etc. This would give them a taste of military life, as well as help them have gainful summer employment. This also avoids the sense that they are an armed force. One other thing we could do, especially with Senior Cadets is have them employed within the recruitment system on a part time, contract basis after school and on weekends. Giving of course them employment, as well as allowing us to keep offices open longer, and attract more people.

2 - The Supp reserve needs to be overhauled. They need to bring back the 300 dollar bounty for each year, as well as remove the 5 year limit on it. Personally I think they should be employed for at least a weekend or two a year, possibly a week or so in order to complete basic weapons handling, medical, drill and ceremonial and administrative roles. This allows them to keep current, especially if they were paid at their old rates of pay for that, as well, we should be able to offer them contract employment, should the primary reserve not be able to fill these roles. I mean, this should of course be in roles that people are qualified, or in any number of general roles. We could do all of this remotely, via email notifications of taskings available, sign up online, get a call, get listed, go down to your local Armouries and draw equipment, fill out paperwork etc etc.

This of course could help backfill a few positions, especially positions for specialists that are needed on a short term basis. This would not cost us much, especially since these people are trained and experienced.

3 - We need an expansion of the Reserve Forces, Period.

4 - We also could link the third point I raised, with hiring of retired and former members on contracts to fill positions as needed. We would be able to have a sizable manpower pool for surge capacity, as well as to be able to fill more specialized jobs.

We should also look at contracting out more services or offering them as public service jobs.

5 - One thing we could look at is somthing similar to what Austrialia does, and offer employment to members of Commonwealth Forces seeking to move to Canada. They offer generous relocation allowances and fast tracks through the immigration system and assistance in resettling in the country. They also look for people in the early to mid career point, as to allow long service if needed. This would be an attractive option to many.

We also could open up recruitment similar to the British to Americans, as well as Commonwealth Citizens, with the option for citizenship, or some sort of educational reimbursement. This would allow us a larger pool of manpower with similar values, qualities and education levels.
Craig
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not because of manpower limitations that I support foreign legions. I think "nation building" is more effective if natives are directly involved in their victories. I also think it is politically more pallitable to have foreigners killed for foreign causes than Canadians. We can be more interventionist without having to constantly appease the leftists.
Libertas





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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It is not because of manpower limitations that I support foreign legions. I think "nation building" is more effective if natives are directly involved in their victories. I also think it is politically more pallitable to have foreigners killed for foreign causes than Canadians. We can be more interventionist without having to constantly appease the leftists.


What do you mean by "natives." Most of the places the Canadian Forces are deployed in, and will likely be deployed to won't be first world nations. We're more likely to be placed in the Balkans, Central Africa, and the Middle East. Recruitment from those places would be problematic to say the least.

Think about the cost and security risks as well. It's far easier to ensure a Canadian citizen is on the level and not engaged in any darker activities than a person from Lebanon for example.

Canadian's can already be far more interventionist than most nations for the simple fact that we have an all volunteer military. We don't have mandatory conscription like Singapore, Switzerland, or Sweden. It wouldn't surprise me if the left got up into arms if we even attempted to start a foreign legion.

Like I said before, we should make it easier for commonwealth citizens to join the military, however it should remain a military which is made up of Canadians for the most part.

Another point to make, despite the Liberals anti-Americanism when it comes to Iraq the fact is they have been fairly interventionist when it came to East Timor, Kosovo, Afghanistan, etc. Hell, if Ignatieff was the Prime Minister in 2003 chances are we would have sent troops to Iraq.
IanM





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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its more than that.

Its about the profession of arms.

The military isn't about the money, any kid with a decent paper route or tradesman in the private sector makes more money.

It isn't about a free education, only very few, very select few receive that.

It isn't even about citizenship, because the government would not let anyone else take a faster route in for shedding blood for the country.

It is not even about political capital used in sending troops overseas. We've sent tens of thousands of young men and women through the years to be interventionist on the world stage, from both World Wars, to Korea, to every UN Peacekeeping / Peace Support Mission. Even more recently with NATO sanctioned missions.

We have signed legal documents outlining our obligations under our law, as well as international law to justify our role in every single mission we have undertaken and every overseas deployment by the Canadian Forces.

We must respect the law. As unpopular as it is politically.

More so than that, people join the military for reasons other than monetary compensation. I make more now than I did in the Armed Forces, so do many people who leave. They could have paid me nothing, and I still would have signed my name on the dotted line, gave up my rights and freedoms as well as taken myself to the mental place where there's a possibility that I may have to order young men and women to give up their lives for their country.

This is important. However, I want to make it clear that money is an incentive, and people do need to live, and I do support higher pay in the Armed Forces.

The reason of course is that with the desire to serve one's country, it also means that one must shoulder great responsibilities, great stress for little reward. It is a litmus test in itself that we have citizens willing to shoulder arms and face danger and death for their country. These people are motivated, and willing to do so not for any higher purpose than to serve their country.

Yeah, the military votes conservative, yeah they tend to be socially conservative and insular. Nothing's going to change that, but yet they endow the qualities in which Canada is made up of.

A foreign legion would destroy all of that. The Military would cease to be a Canadian Institution, it would lose the Regimental System, its heritage, its lineage, the Millita / Volenteer Myth, the fact that regimental association or geographic association would be meaningless in the name of nameless, faceless people who come to join for adventure, or the chance at education / citizenship, or good (in comparison) money.

Security considerations aside, they would not be reliable in general, as the great thing about our military is the quiet professionalism and stiff upper lip that we tend to have. I am not being racist, nor discriminatory, however the homogeneous make up of many in our armed forces tends to be its strongest suit.

I do agree with opening it up to US, as well as Commonwealth citizens without any reservations however.
FF_Canuck





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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IanM,

I know I've said this before, but I really hope you're sending your ideas to Minister MacKay.
IanM wrote:
1 - Cadet Instructor Cadre members are not allowed to serve outside of the Cadet Movement, These are very dedicated people, often university students. Or retired members of the armed forces. There is no reason why we can't employ 25%-50% of them in Administrative and Support roles in the armed forces, thus freeing up regular army and reserve forces for more deployment roles or to help fix the manpower shortages. Personally, I'd like to see at least 50% of Recruiting Office Staff, and 20% of all Base Administrative Staff come from the CIC.

With Cadets, we could also employ them on a Summer basis, especially those older than 15-16. Not in any sort of field role, but as clerks, runners, drivers, storemen, etc. This would give them a taste of military life, as well as help them have gainful summer employment. This also avoids the sense that they are an armed force. One other thing we could do, especially with Senior Cadets is have them employed within the recruitment system on a part time, contract basis after school and on weekends. Giving of course them employment, as well as allowing us to keep offices open longer, and attract more people.

I really like this idea in particular. In addition to university students, a lot of CIC tend to be teachers and similar professions with seasonal or semi-seasonal work that allows for officer training. Having witnessed them in action many, many times, I believe they are uniquely suited for administrative and logistics work that the CF would require, and many of them would jump at the chance to serve in that capacity.

As a former cadet, I can't tell you how much I would have enjoyed the opportunity for summer work on a CF base; an addendum to your point would be that the CCM depends on hiring senior cadets into staff positions during the summer to run their training programs - as instructors, security, admin ... etc. Many of these cadets would already have experience working in a military environment.
Mac





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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IanM wrote:
The military isn't about the money, any kid with a decent paper route or tradesman in the private sector makes more money.

I suspect that is something most people don't realize. Service is it's own reward.

-Mac
Craig
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Libertas wrote:
What do you mean by "natives." Most of the places the Canadian Forces are deployed in, and will likely be deployed to won't be first world nations. We're more likely to be placed in the Balkans, Central Africa, and the Middle East. Recruitment from those places would be problematic to say the least.


Do you really think it would be difficult to recruit people who are being killed as are the people in Darfur? Arming them is the very least we can do - and it would not be difficult.
Libertas





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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Do you really think it would be difficult to recruit people who are being killed as are the people in Darfur? Arming them is the very least we can do - and it would not be difficult.


But that's not really a foreign legion, it's basically another Operation Cyclone.
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
Libertas wrote:
What do you mean by "natives." Most of the places the Canadian Forces are deployed in, and will likely be deployed to won't be first world nations. We're more likely to be placed in the Balkans, Central Africa, and the Middle East. Recruitment from those places would be problematic to say the least.


Do you really think it would be difficult to recruit people who are being killed as are the people in Darfur? Arming them is the very least we can do - and it would not be difficult.


Arming people in Darfur was not exactly what I meant. Once those people you arm in Darfur go attack another tribe and kill them all right down to the goats, then you have a huge problem on your hands. (yes, I know lots of human rights are commited by the government of Sudan, but I don't think the other side would be that much better, especially since they probably have a ton of rage built up.

Whatever force you build should be commanded by Canadian officers and have a fair mix of people - not just an armed Darfur village run amok.
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