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nathaliejcaron





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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 6:32 am    Post subject: California and Cannabis Reply with quote

So I hear the Governator is considering opening the debate in California over legalizing marijuana.

I am not sure how I feel on this issue. In one way, it may be immoral, but on the other, if someone's gonna be making money off these drugs, better be the government than organized crime? No? Its a whole untapped market, in a way.

I have been thinking about this and gambling. What are you thoughts on this? Is this something Canada should consider or is this not the time and place?
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 7:26 am    Post subject: Re: California and Cannabis Reply with quote

nathaliejcaron wrote:
So I hear the Governator is considering opening the debate in California over legalizing marijuana.

I am not sure how I feel on this issue. In one way, it may be immoral, but on the other, if someone's gonna be making money off these drugs, better be the government than organized crime? No? Its a whole untapped market, in a way.

I have been thinking about this and gambling. What are you thoughts on this? Is this something Canada should consider or is this not the time and place?


You can't fight Marijuana. As long as its illegal and easy to produce there will always be someone trying to make money from it. Everyone you put in jail will be replaced by someone else. Fighting it is a waste of law enforcement resources.

If you took all the money spent to jail pot heads and grow lab operators and spent that money on extra police and border enforcement to stop hard drugs, I think you would get a lot more bang for the buck.
905 Tory





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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wholeheartedly support the governator on this one. I'd be on the first flight to California if something comes out of this, lol (remember, right now its just a debate). I hope Canada can do something about our marijuana laws so that our government can make money off of this. At the very least, decriminalization is one of the few things I agreed with Chretien about.
SFrank85





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Location: Toronto - Scarborough Southwest

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What we do not need is more easily accessible drugs. Just because it is a hassle to charge and put people in jail over it (which hardly happens, unless there is a bigger crime also committed), does not mean you just drop the law. Marijuana is a drug that 1) IS more cancerous than cigarettes, and 2) is a gateway to other, more serious drugs.

I also have a real problem with government making money on immoral things. Not so much on cigarettes, but on gambling. But that is a completely different issue altogether.
905 Tory





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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SFrank85 wrote:
What we do not need is more easily accessible drugs. Just because it is a hassle to charge and put people in jail over it (which hardly happens, unless there is a bigger crime also committed), does not mean you just drop the law. Marijuana is a drug that 1) IS more cancerous than cigarettes, and 2) is a gateway to other, more serious drugs.

I also have a real problem with government making money on immoral things. Not so much on cigarettes, but on gambling. But that is a completely different issue altogether.


I don't know the scientific validity of your claim that it is a gateway drug. No widely accepted research has ever tied cannabis-use to harder drug. Actually, it is widely accepted that cigarettes are more correlated with harder drug than marijuana.

Also, marijuana is only more cancerous than tobacco when it is smoked. If it is consumed in other ways, such as chewing, are much less harmful than its tobacco counterpart. Also, vaporizing the marijuana instead of smoking it directly, de facto eliminates all undesirable chemicals.

So with the above points mentioned, I don't see why we need to keep a lock on this leaf while we let other drugs, like tobacco and alcohol roam the streets.

On your point about making money on gambling: I don't see why the government should not be making money off of this. Its going to happen anyways. Whats your solution? Throw gamblers in jail? They are only hurting themselves. With government involvement, we can make sure that gamblers and marijuana smokers are kept safe (without having to get their hands cut off for not making payments) and the government pockets the rest.
nathaliejcaron





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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

905 Tory wrote:

I don't know the scientific validity of your claim that it is a gateway drug. No widely accepted research has ever tied cannabis-use to harder drug. Actually, it is widely accepted that cigarettes are more correlated with harder drug than marijuana.

(...)

So with the above points mentioned, I don't see why we need to keep a lock on this leaf while we let other drugs, like tobacco and alcohol roam the streets.


I agree there, I have also heard the same about cigarettes being a far worse gateway drug than marijuana. That's Refer Madness old style propaganda against pot. If cigarettes are legal, then pot may as well be too. As for alcohol, it does kill many more than pot does, I believe (can't quote any stats here, but I think I read some about that).

For argument's sake, it seems hypocritical to continue to have pot illegal, and a pretty large limit of personal freedoms.


905 Tory wrote:
On your point about making money on gambling: I don't see why the government should not be making money off of this. Its going to happen anyways. Whats your solution? Throw gamblers in jail? They are only hurting themselves. With government involvement, we can make sure that gamblers and marijuana smokers are kept safe (without having to get their hands cut off for not making payments) and the government pockets the rest.


This is also how I feel. I know a lot of people who wager on sports, for example. They go through foreign online casinos, money that is pretty much off the charts. If the Government of Ontario, for example, can manage the lottery, some sports wagering, and casinos, through the OLG, they are already making money off an "immoral" action.

I agree that this should be a personal call, you want to gamble and you lose, its your choice and decision. We can't and shouldn't micromanage individuals (we can surely all agree to that).

It seems like squandered opportunities to let others, overseas or organized crime, profit on these things which will continue to take place, whether they are legal or not.
fkarcha





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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As long as people are consuming it in the privacy and safety of their own home, and do not endanger other persons, I do not think it is any business of the government to meddle in the affairs of our body.[/list]
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SFrank85 wrote:
What we do not need is more easily accessible drugs. Just because it is a hassle to charge and put people in jail over it (which hardly happens, unless there is a bigger crime also committed), does not mean you just drop the law. Marijuana is a drug that 1) IS more cancerous than cigarettes,


Perhaps its pound for pound more cancerous than cigarettes, but the amount consumed is far less. Not many people smoke a "pack a day" of pot. In addition, marijuana is not addictive in the same sense as tobacco. Most people smoke a little pot when they are young and outgrow it. Tobacco is for life.

SFrank85 wrote:


2) is a gateway to other, more serious drugs.


It is not a gateway drug. That is pure BS. Nicotine is a stimulent, like cocaine and meth. Marijuana is a Hallucinogen. Cocaine is a more powerful version of nicotine. Marijuana is a less powerful version of what ? Magic Mushrooms ?

SFrank85 wrote:

I also have a real problem with government making money on immoral things. Not so much on cigarettes, but on gambling. But that is a completely different issue altogether.


"Not so much cigarettes" ??? Cigarettes kill something like half a million Americans a year. Its an industry dependent on addicting kids.
How many people has gambling killed ??? How many people has pot killed ???

But, again, my main objection to fighting marijuana is that we are spending a whole ton of money and losing.

On CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/.....index.html


Those Mexican drug cartels make more money from pot that everything else combined. It brought them 8, something billion. What we need to do is tax pot (which is harmless compared to some legal drugs) and take those resources to fight hard drugs. Not to mention save jail space for the murders who get let out early to make room for pot heads.
SFrank85





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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for the OLG and the government running it, have you seen the corruption surrounding the OLG? That just proves that governments should not be involved in the gambling industry.

Just because it is going to happen, does not mean that the government needs to feed off the addictions of others. Governments who rely on “sin” taxes are more encouraged with making money, instead of helping society.
905 Tory





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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SFrank85 wrote:
As for the OLG and the government running it, have you seen the corruption surrounding the OLG? That just proves that governments should not be involved in the gambling industry.

Just because it is going to happen, does not mean that the government needs to feed off the addictions of others. Governments who rely on “sin” taxes are more encouraged with making money, instead of helping society.


If you have a problem with taxing it, then don't tax it. The fact of the matter is that there is no reason to keep it illegal and waste billions putting people in jail for it.
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SFrank85 wrote:
As for the OLG and the government running it, have you seen the corruption surrounding the OLG? That just proves that governments should not be involved in the gambling industry.

Just because it is going to happen, does not mean that the government needs to feed off the addictions of others. Governments who rely on “sin” taxes are more encouraged with making money, instead of helping society.


I think the key word here is "addictions". People are addicted to pill, alcohol, gambling nicotine, hard drugs. To a certain extent, they are acting against there will.
Marijuana, on the other hand, is not physically addictive. A person feels like smoking it because they want to.

Apart from the cost, I don't think we have the right to criminalize something that is less dangerous and less addictive than cigarettes. Whats next....ban cheeseburgers ?
Mac





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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fiscalconservative wrote:
Apart from the cost, I don't think we have the right to criminalize something that is less dangerous and less addictive than cigarettes. Whats next....ban cheeseburgers ?

Of course. Cheeseburgers are the bane of human existence!!

I'm not interested in smoking up but the prohibition really doesn't work. I wonder how much further ahead medical science would be at addressing addiction if the money spent on enforcement, courts and jail costs resulting from prohibition were put into research?

-Mac
nathaliejcaron





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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SFrank85 wrote:
As for the OLG and the government running it, have you seen the corruption surrounding the OLG? That just proves that governments should not be involved in the gambling industry.


I'm sorry but you're gonna need to back this one up. What corruption? Are you speaking of the recent issues with retailers winning more than all others? That is not what I would call corruption.

Also, in regards to gambling, people always jump down the route of addiction. There are many more individuals who play casually and safely than there are those who become addicted, I argue. Just like everything else it has come to be sensationalized, and you only hear the stories of people who are drowning in debt.

Get help for those people, but I would like the freedom to make the decision to play within my country and legally.
SFrank85





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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nathaliejcaron wrote:
SFrank85 wrote:
As for the OLG and the government running it, have you seen the corruption surrounding the OLG? That just proves that governments should not be involved in the gambling industry.


I'm sorry but you're gonna need to back this one up. What corruption? Are you speaking of the recent issues with retailers winning more than all others? That is not what I would call corruption.

Also, in regards to gambling, people always jump down the route of addiction. There are many more individuals who play casually and safely than there are those who become addicted, I argue. Just like everything else it has come to be sensationalized, and you only hear the stories of people who are drowning in debt.

Get help for those people, but I would like the freedom to make the decision to play within my country and legally.


How about the problem of misprinted tickets. A few years ago, David Menzies went 18 for 18 on his college football picks. He was entitled to win $18,000 from the OLG. The OLG refused to pay him because of a mistake they made on the ticket. A game with Colorado Sate vs. Colorado had the wrong home team printed on the ticket. Menzies still went 18 for 18, but was not paid for a mistake the OLG made.

He has to take them to court, and was paid hush money. Think of that, a crown corporation paying hush money to not allow talking about it.

Another case just recently was when a man won on his scratch and win card. Of course the man won, but according to the OLG, there was a printing error, and refused to pay him his rightful win. Next thing he had to take them to court, and was once again paid hush money.

And the fact of the matter is they never do tell you where the money is going, and what program services they actually fund.
mrsocko





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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What we need to do is tax pot (which is harmless compared to some legal drugs)


Hey man have you tried the shit out on the street these days. It is primo stuff man. I smoked a spliff the other day and next thing you know I was rolling this big donut up a hill when a snake asked me for directions to the white rabbits house and................ :? :? :?
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