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Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
Reputation: 104
votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might shock some of you to hear me say this but libertarianism is far too ideological and not nearly pragmatic enough to make for an effective form of government for Canada at this time. Perhaps if we hadn't endured decades of leftard governments pushing us toward the Trudeau-topian nightmare, we could contemplate moving towards it but, for now, libertarianism can only hope to act as an influence on the Conservative Party to keep up the pressure for fiscal conservatism, smaller government, less red tape and trashing stupid regulations.

Perhaps PMSH and I have some common ground?

-Mac
Habsrwfan





Joined: 04 Oct 2008
Posts: 688
Reputation: 49.8Reputation: 49.8Reputation: 49.8Reputation: 49.8Reputation: 49.8
votes: 5

PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A feeling that I sometimes get from watching Harper on TV, or reading certain statements made by him, is that... he hasn't moved towards the center purely out of political pragmatism. He's moved to the center, to some extent, because he's sincerely changed his mind on some things.

In the English leaders debate back in the 2008 federal campaign, Harper basically admitted that the US-led invasion of Iraq was a mistake. Now, granted, to say the contrary, at this juncture, in Canada, would be political suicide... but I don't think that Harper's admittance here was made purely out of political expediency. I think that Harper has sincerely changed his mind on this issue.

I think that, to a large degree, Harper has been greatly disappointed by American conservatives/Republicans, and their failures in recent years. I sensed a lot of that coming from Harper's casual prediction of Democrats and Obama doing well just before the recent American elections.

I think that this all has had a sobering effect on him, and has caused him to rethink many of his key political ideas. I think that it's shaken his... faith in conservatism/libertarianism, if you will... the way that tragic events can sometimes shake a person's religious faith.

I think that Harper is still a conservative, but I think that he's more moderate now than before.

It's important to keep in mind that Harper was once a member of a "Young Liberals" organization. So, the fact that he left the Liberals to support conservative causes out west shows that he is an open-minded fellow, who's politics is somewhat fluid.

He's not the strict ideologue that the left in Canada makes him out to be, imo.
FF_Canuck





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 3360
Reputation: 73.4
votes: 17
Location: Southern Alberta

PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
It might shock some of you to hear me say this but libertarianism is far too ideological and not nearly pragmatic enough to make for an effective form of government for Canada at this time. Perhaps if we hadn't endured decades of leftard governments pushing us toward the Trudeau-topian nightmare, we could contemplate moving towards it but, for now, libertarianism can only hope to act as an influence on the Conservative Party to keep up the pressure for fiscal conservatism, smaller government, less red tape and trashing stupid regulations.

Perhaps PMSH and I have some common ground?

-Mac

I think that's fair, and to be clear: Assuming that the first-hand reports are accurate, I don't object to the notion that Canada is not ready for strict libertarianism. I do argue with the idea that adherence to economic freedom was the cause of the US Banking collapse - government played a huge role in the current state of affairs. Attempts were made to make the same changes that Harper made, but were blocked in the US by the very same Democrats now controlling the House and Senate.

Mike Brock is asserting that Harper argured it was not just free markets, but libertarian CEOs caused this, and that libertarians have no sense of personal responsibility, as evidence by the bailouts. Again, I find it hard to believe that Harper advanced that argument - but it concern me if he did.

Mostly, I was hoping I might get some more information and insight about what he said, but that doesn't look likely.
mbrock





Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 5
Reputation: 22.9Reputation: 22.9

PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rumour?
DixieCanuck





Joined: 07 Sep 2008
Posts: 77
Reputation: 17.1Reputation: 17.1
votes: 1
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
Bah - you guys sound like the Liberal media waiting to pounce on any statement he says. If you give enough speeches you will offend many many groups at least once. Aren't liberatarians supposed to be laid back?


How much of this abuse are we to take before we realize the Conservative Party does NOT speak for us? We need a voice of our own. There is no need to insist on being pragmatic. The likelihood of extreme Libertarian policies being enacted are as likely as the NDP enacting communist policies.
Cool Blue





Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 3130
Reputation: 114.9
votes: 10
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
We need a voice of our own


You do have a voice of your own, the Libertarian party which usually get around 1% of the vote while still fighting against important issues as mandatory seat-belt laws.
DixieCanuck





Joined: 07 Sep 2008
Posts: 77
Reputation: 17.1Reputation: 17.1
votes: 1
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool Blue wrote:
Quote:
We need a voice of our own


You do have a voice of your own, the Libertarian party which usually get around 1% of the vote while still fighting against important issues as mandatory seat-belt laws.


Haha... at least someone is and I certainly don't expect the CPC to anymore. Maybe that 1% will be 2-3% next time and just enough to keep them from a majority and/or be the tipping point for many individual MP's. Of course, the CPC may get Christian Heritage Party support after this. Unfortunately many disappointed in the conservatives will stay home or drift to the liberals. A Libertarian Party with Green party levels of support and a MP or two like Andre Arthur would be a good thing for Canada I think.
FF_Canuck





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 3360
Reputation: 73.4
votes: 17
Location: Southern Alberta

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps people are reading between my lines too much, but I'm realistic enough that I don't expect politicians to perfectly reflect my views. I think my interests are better served by working with other types of conservatives on the basis of shared ideas, rather than withdrawing and waiting for a perfect 'match'.
Charles J. White





Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 47
Reputation: 8.9Reputation: 8.9Reputation: 8.9Reputation: 8.9Reputation: 8.9Reputation: 8.9Reputation: 8.9Reputation: 8.9
votes: 1

PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:34 am    Post subject: Re: Rumour: Harper disses libertarians at Manning Conference Reply with quote

FF_Canuck wrote:
Between Stephen Taylor's twitter feeds, and the impressions of Mike Brock, attending the Manning Centre's Conference, it's starting to look like Harper had some nasty things to say about libertarian leaning conservatives:

Mike Brock, in comments wrote:
I can confirm that Harper, did indeed trash libertarians. I was in the room. Stephen Taylor clearly saw the look on my face when he took pot shots at libertarians as I was only a few yards his left.

In one breath, Harper said he sympathized with libertarian ideals. In the other breath, he goes on to say we're essentially naive and how his government's populist approach is the only sensible way forward.

He also went on to compare libertarians to the Wall Street bankers who he asserted caused this problem, drawing a connection between the libertarian position for less regulation and the Wall Street lobbying for less regulation.

He essentially said libertarians want less regulation, but then want government handouts when they get themselves into trouble.

He also noted Canada will come out of this recession a stronger, "well regulated economy".

I will blog on this soon.
Source.
I'm disturbed by this development, but awaiting more information before I say more. It doesn't seem like a transcript will be forthcoming, unfortunately.


- Harper told the group that his version of conservatism is summed up "in three Fs:freedom, family and faith."

My question to this twit Steve is whatever happened to individual rights, private property rights, and fiscal conservatism?

The bloody Liberals and NDP could both argue they represent freedom, family, and faith. That is just a nuch of stupid hog wash. Harper is NO conservative...
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Rumour: Harper disses libertarians at Manning Conference

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