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kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:32 pm    Post subject: Innocent until proven guilty. Reply with quote

It seems lately that this has fallen by the wayside, and that is bad because this is a very important pillar in the rule of law. Most recently, it is that Khadr fellow, but there are many recent examples.

The court of public opinion decides a person is guilty, and that is just it.
Craig
Site Admin




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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rules of war are and should be different than the law of the land.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I am saying is, if I am ever accused of a crime, I am hoping a judge gets to hear me out before the jury makes a decision. It seems no one cares about either facts or due process anymore. Khadr, for example, has to go through the process before his guilt can be established; but he has to go through the process, whether he comes out clean or is proven guilty.

People have divided into two camps, the he is innocent and the he is guilty camp. As i said, there have been many recent examples of this. Mulroney/Shreiber, Harper/Cadman, just to name 2.
gc





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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:01 am    Post subject: Re: Innocent until proven guilty. Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
It seems lately that this has fallen by the wayside, and that is bad because this is a very important pillar in the rule of law...

I agree. Everyone should be innocent until prove guilty, rather than spend years in Gitmo before even going to trial.
Quote:
People have divided into two camps, the he is innocent and the he is guilty camp. As i said, there have been many recent examples of this. Mulroney/Shreiber, Harper/Cadman, just to name 2.

Or Martin/Sponsorship, Brison/Income trusts etc... Basically any accusation of wrongdoing against a Liberal...
FF_Canuck





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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that trial by media is a real problem in our times. I've seen very, very few cases where the ongoing reporting and analysis of a criminal or civil proceeding is of actual benefit to the public. Another one of those tough cases where you have to balance competing rights - in this case, the right to free speech competes with the right to a fair trial. And that at the same time that they compete, media access can be part of guaranteeing a free trial. I don't know what that ideal balance point is, but I don't think we've found it yet.
Cool Blue





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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think in the case of Khader, it's not so much the fact of whether or not he committed murder, but rather the fact that he was an active member of Al-Queda and the Taliban.

Even if he isn't guilty of murder in this instance, there is no doubt that he was willing to murder and most likely has killed in the past.
Sheila





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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool Blue wrote:
Even if he isn't guilty of murder in this instance, there is no doubt that he was willing to murder and most likely has killed in the past.


Even if he isn't guilty of murder, you would convict him on thought crimes or things you have no knowledge of him doing? Wow how Canadian is that?

Just like the Bernier/Couillard affair, where no one was guilty of anything. But if you check back on that thread you will see all the atrocities committed by both parties. Harper was right when he called them a bunch of gossipy old men. :lol:
gc





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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sheila wrote:
Even if he isn't guilty of murder, you would convict him on thought crimes or things you have no knowledge of him doing? Wow how Canadian is that?

I think they made a movie about that, starring Tom Cruise :lol:
FascistLibertarian





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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What % of people have their cases publically discussed by the media?
Cool Blue





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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Even if he isn't guilty of murder, you would convict him on thought crimes or things you have no knowledge of him doing? Wow how Canadian is that?


There is a legal term for what you're describing: Attempted murder.

Or conspiracy, or providing support to a terrorist organization.

Even if he is not guilty of that specific charge of murder, he is clearly not innocent of criminal activity.

Funny how the media and the left are only focusing on that one video of him. Remember that other video of Khadr and what he was doing?

Planting roadside bombs to kill our troops.
Mac





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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes... and no...

As far as the criminal courts are concerned, the presumption of innocence is firmly intact, even more so in recent years. At this point, the "innocent until proved guilty beyond reasonable doubt" has evolved into "beyond any doubt whatsoever" and the Crown prosecutors won't even contemplate a case which isn't airtight... and even some of those get tossed for arbitrary reasons.

The "court of public opinion" is operated by the media and the public who are gullible enough to accept their nonsense. In that court, there are no rules of evidence and the verdict comes before the trial since the journalists who write the tripe are the judges.

-Mac
Duck Tory





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sad now that Offenders can twist the system to their own advatange case in point the young offenders act. You have no idea how many i knew when i was young manipluted the law to their advatange.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool Blue wrote:
I think in the case of Khader, it's not so much the fact of whether or not he committed murder, but rather the fact that he was an active member of Al-Queda and the Taliban.

Even if he isn't guilty of murder in this instance, there is no doubt that he was willing to murder and most likely has killed in the past.

Yeah, there are those pictures of him smiling, carrying the string of human hands around.
Habsrwfan





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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Innocent until proven guilty. Reply with quote

gc wrote:
kwlafayette wrote:
It seems lately that this has fallen by the wayside, and that is bad because this is a very important pillar in the rule of law...

I agree. Everyone should be innocent until prove guilty, rather than spend years in Gitmo before even going to trial.
Quote:
People have divided into two camps, the he is innocent and the he is guilty camp. As i said, there have been many recent examples of this. Mulroney/Shreiber, Harper/Cadman, just to name 2.

Or Martin/Sponsorship, Brison/Income trusts etc... Basically any accusation of wrongdoing against a Liberal...


I don't recall Martin, or Brison, being declared "guilty" by the court of public opinion.

Parts of the Liberal party was actually found guilty by an actual court, when it comes to the Sponsorship Scandal - so of course that's going to rightfully spill over into the court of public opinion.

The Mulroney/Shreiber, and Harper/Cadman, affairs are entirely different.
gc





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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Innocent until proven guilty. Reply with quote

Habsrwfan wrote:
I don't recall Martin, or Brison, being declared "guilty" by the court of public opinion.

Really? Just look on this forum, or other political forums.
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