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TealTories





Joined: 26 Oct 2006
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Location: Calgary

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:27 am    Post subject: Voting Criminals Reply with quote

The government has the opportunity to stop allowing convicted criminals the "right" to vote.
This is the time to do it. Lets face it, an election is lurking.
If the CPC tables a bill to stop this ridiculous practice and the opposition doesn't allow it to pass, we could definately win votes in all ridings.
The message should be that convicted criminals opinions are not valued equal by the CPC as honest, law abiding, contributing citizens of Canada. In other words for the ones that vote against this bill must think and or feel that criminals that dont repesect and or abide by our laws are seen as equals, to law abiding Canadian citizens.

This would be a no lose situation for the CPC, if the bill gets passed;
1) Criminals are not allowed to vote.
2) They can use it in the next election to show what they have done.

If the opposition doesnt allow it to pass;
1) It will expose the blatent partisanship in the House of Commons by the opposition.
2) It will expose that the opposition has the same level of respect for a criminal as the rest of its citizens.

I am convinced if you polled Canadians that 80% would have to agree that no criminal should have the right to vote.
Hasdrubal





Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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votes: 5
Location: Nova Scotia

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

However by not allowing criminals to vote the LPC would lose some political points because of this legislation. So even if this bill gets passed who's to say the next Liberal government won't reinstate the vote?
TealTories





Joined: 26 Oct 2006
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votes: 1
Location: Calgary

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you make it a vote of confidence you would get alot of publicity, and the Liberals couldnt vote against it.
If they did reinstate it there would be public out cry.
I think it is a fantastic way to divide the Liberals and to get more support for the Conservatives.
Plus the liberals would lose all those votes.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
Reputation: 104
votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Time to put on my devil's advocate hat... :shock:

Why shouldn't any prisoners have the right to vote? They're incarcerated, not dead. If prisoners are Canadian citizens of adult age, what is the justification for preventing them from voting?

Voting is the duty of every adult citizen of Canada. It's the cornerstone of democracy and every citizens' method of feedback and accountability for government. Rights aren't arbitrary to be removed at the stroke of a pen. If someone's rights are to be infringed upon, there needs to be a solid, quantitative reason for doing so. If we remove the duty to vote, we encouraging criminals to be irresponsible about government.

I think governments at all levels have too many fingers in too many pies and their attempts to legislate common sense and/or morality are misguided. That being said, I would support legislation which made voting mandatory for every adult citizen. There are too many citizens who choose to avoid taking responsibility for their government.

-Mac
TealTories





Joined: 26 Oct 2006
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Location: Calgary

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
Time to put on my devil's advocate hat... :shock:

Why shouldn't any prisoners have the right to vote? They're incarcerated, not dead. If prisoners are Canadian citizens of adult age, what is the justification for preventing them from voting?

Voting is the duty of every adult citizen of Canada. It's the cornerstone of democracy and every citizens' method of feedback and accountability for government. Rights aren't arbitrary to be removed at the stroke of a pen. If someone's rights are to be infringed upon, there needs to be a solid, quantitative reason for doing so. If we remove the duty to vote, we encouraging criminals to be irresponsible about government.

I think governments at all levels have too many fingers in too many pies and their attempts to legislate common sense and/or morality are misguided. That being said, I would support legislation which made voting mandatory for every adult citizen. There are too many citizens who choose to avoid taking responsibility for their government.

-Mac

The Justification is when you commit a crime there should be consequences for that action. Currently we limit your rights by incarcerating the felon, this would be another consequence. When you are a criminal you are not living up to the moral standard of society, and when you are stealing from a shopkeeper etc. you have made an immoral decision (and dont use the I stole to put food in kids mouth crap this is Canada, we have an abundencies of social programs). Do you want these immoral Canadians deciding on your MP? Should his or her opinion be weighted the same as yours? (assuming you are a law abiding. contributing member to society).
By allowing criminals to vote, is exactly that, it is stating that the criminal is worth the same amount as the law abiding citizen. These people choose to break the law and by doing so there should be consequences.
With all the "Getting tough on crime Legislation" that has been brought before the house right now, how do you think those criminals will vote?
I have chosen to live my life within the rule of law in Canada, therefore I should have more rights then the Canadians who dont.
When you choose not to abide by Canadian law you should not have a say on how or wich laws should be created therefore you shouldnt get to vote.
You still have the choice when released to decide to live within the confines of our laws or not. Once you are released you will have the ability to vote although when you are in the confines of our prison system that right should be suspended.

On the other hand your second paragraph is completely hypocritical. On one side you say that government interferes to much in our lives and then you say it should be made madetory to vote. This is puzzling. Which is it should the interfere less or should they make it manditory to vote?
biggie





Joined: 06 Sep 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good idea(and a Majority house kind of thing to do), but how about this ammendment;

Lets take it easy on the criminals not voting (the LPC and NDP will cry charter this and charter that - despite the fact it doesn't apply - as usual).

Instead, how about the CPC bans TVs from jail cells... Change our prison's from the local Fairmont to real institutes of justice. Remove any thoughts of Internet in-cell for prisoners... And porn for that matter.

now THAT is a piece of legislation everyone can enjoy.. And I don't think there's a single reasonable argument against it.
biggie





Joined: 06 Sep 2006
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votes: 10
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:

I think governments at all levels have too many fingers in too many pies and their attempts to legislate common sense and/or morality are misguided. That being said, I would support legislation which made voting mandatory for every adult citizen. There are too many citizens who choose to avoid taking responsibility for their government.
-Mac


I tend to see it like this - those that don't vote, I'm glad they don't... they obviously don't know enough about important life-altering events to make a good decision on them.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
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votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I meant it when I said Devil's Advocate... I'm not for or contrary to removing voting rights from prisoners. I haven't formulated a firm position on it which is why I wanted to encourage debate- to help me understand the positions of others and make my choice.

TealTories wrote:
The Justification is when you commit a crime there should be consequences for that action. Currently we limit your rights by incarcerating the felon, this would be another consequence.

Infringing on the voting rights of prisoners couldn't be a direct consequence of criminal conviction. If it were, it would be one of the range of sentencing options available to judges. You're talking about removing voting rights from all prisoners. To do so, the legislation would have to be extra-judicial. I suspect any such legislation would be a contravention of the Charter of Rights & Freedoms.

TealTories wrote:
When you are a criminal you are not living up to the moral standard of society, and when you are stealing from a shopkeeper etc. you have made an immoral decision (and dont use the I stole to put food in kids mouth crap this is Canada, we have an abundencies of social programs). Do you want these immoral Canadians deciding on your MP?

Criminal acts are criminal acts. The Criminal Code of Canada has a list of numerous acts which are offences against the Crown and/or individuals and/or groups and/or corporations. It does not have a list of offences against moral standards. It is not possible to legislate morals.

Do I want immoral Canadians deciding on my MP? What choice do I have? Since morals are personal and subjective, in all likelihood, there are people who I consider immoral voting but since they're not criminals, they're allowed to vote and participate in our democracy. For instance, I think Taliban Jack Layton is highly immoral but I'm not asking anyone to take away his right to vote.

Does excluding criminals from participating in our democracy encourage them to modify their behaviour in the future? Not likely. All it does is silence their voice on election day.

TealTories wrote:
Should his or her opinion be weighted the same as yours? (assuming you are a law abiding. contributing member to society).

I am a law abiding, contributing member of society and my vote already isn't equally weighted. As a Western resident, my vote counts for next to nothing because the number of MPs is not equally representative per population for my province as is it in other provinces. As for opinions, they're like belly buttons; most everyone has one.

TealTories wrote:
By allowing criminals to vote, is exactly that, it is stating that the criminal is worth the same amount as the law abiding citizen. These people choose to break the law and by doing so there should be consequences.

There are consequences; they're in jail. Their freedom is taken from them. What you want is above and beyond judicial consequences and, as such, it's like a contravention of the Charter.

TealTories wrote:
With all the "Getting tough on crime Legislation" that has been brought before the house right now, how do you think those criminals will vote?

The number of criminals is statistically insignificant so I don't really care how they vote. If your main concern is that criminals will vote for someone other than the Conservatives, that is truly contemptible. Rights aren't subject to partisan politics.

TealTories wrote:
I have chosen to live my life within the rule of law in Canada, therefore I should have more rights then the Canadians who dont.

I'm glad you choose to live righteously but the Charter disagrees with your assertion as all Canadians (theoretically) have equal rights and freedoms.

TealTories wrote:
When you choose not to abide by Canadian law you should not have a say on how or wich laws should be created therefore you shouldnt get to vote.

This is my only real concern about allowing criminal to vote. By doing so, it is giving them (theoretically) a voice in who makes legislation.... and I haven't resolved that conundrum to my satisfaction. The thing is... criminals don't have direct voice in legislation... and neither do you or I since our MP represents us. All the vote does is give criminals a voice in selecting who becomes MP and, by extension, who forms government and whether that government is minority or majority.

TealTories wrote:
On the other hand your second paragraph is completely hypocritical. On one side you say that government interferes to much in our lives and then you say it should be made madetory to vote. This is puzzling. Which is it should the interfere less or should they make it manditory to vote?

Actually, I think the word you're looking for is contradictory. My first statements are contradictory to my final statement. If so, you're right.

Hypocrisy means a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion. I do believe in smaller government with less tentacles but I also believe that voting isn't taken seriously by citizens. Since voting is a cornerstone of our civilization and governments are supposed to protect our civilization, I think it is incumbent on our government to take action. Let's face it- mandatory voting is much less intrusive than most of the actions of government. Mandatory voting would be less intrusive than funding a special interest group to lobby from special rights for their particular special interest. Mandatory voting would be less intrusive than being audited by Revenue Canada. All it would mean is Canadians would have to vote... nothing more!!

Too many people stopped voting out of disgust over the antics of the previous Liberal regime. Too many people felt their voice wasn't being heard as the Liberals fiddled and danced away our tax dollars. By making voting mandatory, responsible Canadians will exercise their franchise and if that silent majority finally spoke up, I don't think the Conservatives will have a problem securing a majority.

-Mac
don muntean





Joined: 07 Sep 2006
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Location: Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In theory I agree with this - only - there are a few due considerations which presently make this untenable.

One - innocent people end up in jail - it does happen - as such - with a system prone to some of the stupid mistakes we've seen - we cannot take away the rights of all prisoners - without consideration of this point.

Second - what manner of crimes are we speaking of? I would agree that the 'opinions' of confirmed murderers or those who've otherwise enaged in violence are not of importance to those of us who are not like that - however - I would not say that everyone in prison should be denied these rights.

Third - we tend in our age to see the 'slippery slope' all too often - if we say that rights are only for those who follow 'the rules' [which can often become manipulated by the rule makers] we are pulling at the foundations of our judicious freedom and fact based western system - we must not forget this 'slippery slope' and it's many and varied implications.

In the western nations our rights are not dependant on what we do - our privileges are.

Therein we find contrasted - the difference between our 'free' society and - those that are not. In these times of fighting for such a system - in other parts of the globe - we must ensure that our system does not become arbitrary in the understanding of [and of course the meting-out of] 'rights' and ' privileges'.

Fourth and last - I agree with 'biggie' that jails aught not be run the way that they are.

On the first point we as a society must work toward seeing a justice system that works without duplicity - in all cases. We must ensure that innocent people are not harassed by the law [or that laws and their interpretations are improperly discriminatory and as such cultivate problems] - then - we must look again at - proper punishments for violence.

For example - murder is a terrible thing and a confirmed murderer must be hanged.

One good example is that guy here in Saskatchewan who recently shot those two Royal Canadian Mounted Police Officers [may they rest in peace] - he should find himself on the end of a rope and - who can deny 'that' is the right course in such a case?

The same goes for the many sex crimes that we see in our society.

If we do not as a society collectively and justly judge - as per our duty to God - then - it stands to reason that the result of 'not' doing this - is that God shall somehow judge the entire collective - for not disposing proper judgements in such noted cases.

We must see that the continued proliferation of such crimes is due in part to the apathy of those who claim an enlightened position - who call capital punishment a barbaric practice.


Last edited by don muntean on Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
TealTories





Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 473
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Location: Calgary

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Mac"]I meant it when I said Devil's Advocate... I'm not for or contrary to removing voting rights from prisoners. I haven't formulated a firm position on it which is why I wanted to encourage debate- to help me understand the positions of others and make my choice.[quote="Mac"]

Understood

TealTories wrote:
The Justification is when you commit a crime there should be consequences for that action. Currently we limit your rights by incarcerating the felon, this would be another consequence.

[quote="Mac"]Infringing on the voting rights of prisoners couldn't be a direct consequence of criminal conviction. If it were, it would be one of the range of sentencing options available to judges. You're talking about removing voting rights from all prisoners. To do so, the legislation would have to be extra-judicial. I suspect any such legislation would be a contravention of the Charter of Rights & Freedoms.[quote="Mac"]

If it is possible to get around the Charter this way, excellent idea.

TealTories wrote:
When you are a criminal you are not living up to the moral standard of society, and when you are stealing from a shopkeeper etc. you have made an immoral decision (and dont use the I stole to put food in kids mouth crap this is Canada, we have an abundencies of social programs). Do you want these immoral Canadians deciding on your MP?

[quote="Mac"]Criminal acts are criminal acts. The Criminal Code of Canada has a list of numerous acts which are offences against the Crown and/or individuals and/or groups and/or corporations. It does not have a list of offences against moral standards. It is not possible to legislate morals.[quote="Mac"]

The point I was trying to make was an emotional point. There was no logic in this part of the debate.
[quote="Mac"]Do I want immoral Canadians deciding on my MP? What choice do I have? Since morals are personal and subjective, in all likelihood, there are people who I consider immoral voting but since they're not criminals, they're allowed to vote and participate in our democracy. For instance, I think Taliban Jack Layton is highly immoral but I'm not asking anyone to take away his right to vote.[quote="Mac"]

I think we are splitting hairs here. I agree Jack Layton and the past 2 Prime Ministers have a questionable moral standard. As confused as Jack is I dont think it is fair to compare him to a criminal. Therefore lets take the moral conversation out of it, good point.
[quote="Mac"]Does excluding criminals from participating in our democracy encourage them to modify their behaviour in the future? Not likely. All it does is silence their voice on election day.[quote="Mac"]

I agree it is not going to modify their behaviour, although I still beleive that if you are knowingly placing a burden on society, by committing a criminal act, you should not have the right to vote.

TealTories wrote:
Should his or her opinion be weighted the same as yours? (assuming you are a law abiding. contributing member to society).

[quote="Mac"]I am a law abiding, contributing member of society and my vote already isn't equally weighted. As a Western resident, my vote counts for next to nothing because the number of MPs is not equally representative per population for my province as is it in other provinces. As for opinions, they're like belly buttons; most everyone has one.[quote="Mac"]

I live in Calgary I know exactly what you mean about Western Electoral representation. I beleive Calgary Southeast had nearly 120,000 residents. Although my point is about you and a criminal.

TealTories wrote:
By allowing criminals to vote, is exactly that, it is stating that the criminal is worth the same amount as the law abiding citizen. These people choose to break the law and by doing so there should be consequences.

[quote="Mac"]There are consequences; they're in jail. Their freedom is taken from them. What you want is above and beyond judicial consequences and, as such, it's like a contravention of the Charter. [quote="Mac"]

I guess I am like many Canadians frustrated on how soft those consequences are. If these consequences are that soft because of the Charter then we should look at reopening the Charter.

TealTories wrote:
With all the "Getting tough on crime Legislation" that has been brought before the house right now, how do you think those criminals will vote?

[quote="Mac"]The number of criminals is statistically insignificant so I don't really care how they vote. If your main concern is that criminals will vote for someone other than the Conservatives, that is truly contemptible. Rights aren't subject to partisan politics.[quote="Mac"]

I agree if you are a candidate you wouldnt be doing speaking engagements to prisons across Canada hoping to get the criminals vote. Once again I think that law abiding citizens(of legal age etc..) should be the only Canadians alowed to vote.

TealTories wrote:
I have chosen to live my life within the rule of law in Canada, therefore I should have more rights then the Canadians who dont.

[quote="Mac"]I'm glad you choose to live righteously but the Charter disagrees with your assertion as all Canadians (theoretically) have equal rights and freedoms.[quote="Mac"]

Same answer as above we should look at the Charter then.

TealTories wrote:
When you choose not to abide by Canadian law you should not have a say on how or wich laws should be created therefore you shouldnt get to vote.

[quote="Mac"]This is my only real concern about allowing criminal to vote. By doing so, it is giving them (theoretically) a voice in who makes legislation.... and I haven't resolved that conundrum to my satisfaction. The thing is... criminals don't have direct voice in legislation... and neither do you or I since our MP represents us. All the vote does is give criminals a voice in selecting who becomes MP and, by extension, who forms government and whether that government is minority or majority.[quote="Mac"]

TealTories wrote:
On the other hand your second paragraph is completely hypocritical. On one side you say that government interferes to much in our lives and then you say it should be made madetory to vote. This is puzzling. Which is it should the interfere less or should they make it manditory to vote?

[quote="Mac"]Actually, I think the word you're looking for is contradictory. My first statements are contradictory to my final statement. If so, you're right.

Hypocrisy means a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion. I do believe in smaller government with less tentacles but I also believe that voting isn't taken seriously by citizens. Since voting is a cornerstone of our civilization and governments are supposed to protect our civilization, I think it is incumbent on our government to take action. Let's face it- mandatory voting is much less intrusive than most of the actions of government. Mandatory voting would be less intrusive than funding a special interest group to lobby from special rights for their particular special interest. Mandatory voting would be less intrusive than being audited by Revenue Canada. All it would mean is Canadians would have to vote... nothing more!!

Too many people stopped voting out of disgust over the antics of the previous Liberal regime. Too many people felt their voice wasn't being heard as the Liberals fiddled and danced away our tax dollars. By making voting mandatory, responsible Canadians will exercise their franchise and if that silent majority finally spoke up, I don't think the Conservatives will have a problem securing a majority.[quote="Mac"]

I see where your frustration is! Trust me. Although I dont think forcing people to vote is going to resolve that problem. I disagree with people that claim voting is the most important thing we can do as a citizen. It is the least we can do. The most important thing we can do as Canadians is get involved. Spark debate which you have done so well here today. Educate yourself and educate others. Dont buy the headlines read the context, and think deeper.
As a Canadian you should have the right not to vote. A wise man once told me that " Rights aren't subject to partisan politics".




Man thanks for making me think deeper. Your opinions and Devils Advocacy are always welcome.
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