Home FAQ Search Memberlist User Groups Register Login   

BloggingTories.ca Forum IndexBloggingTories.ca Forum Index
    Index     FAQ     Search     Register     Login         JOIN THE DISCUSSION - CLICK HERE      

*NEW* Login or register using your Facebook account.

Not a member? Join the fastest growing conservative community!
Membership is free and takes 15 seconds


CLICK HERE or use Facebook to login or register ----> Connect



  

Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 1 of 1
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Cool Blue





Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 3130
Reputation: 114.9
votes: 10
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:50 pm    Post subject: Liberals About to Recognize Quebec as a Nation? Reply with quote

So it appears that the Liberals are about to recognize Quebec as a "Nation", which is a proposal by Ignatieff and is being pushed by his supporters.

I'd like to discuss what effect this could have on national politics and what response the CPC should take.

I'm incertain if this move would be of much benefit to the Liberals; the NDP have had the recognition of the Quebec "nation" as their policy for over 30 years now yet their party has very little traction in Quebec.

In fact, I think this proposal could split apart the Libs since Trudeau and the PMs who came after him were absolutely against calling Quebec a "nation". The party is already threatened by a split if Ignatieff becomes leader, and I think this would be the breaking point for many Liberals.

Assuming that the Libs pass such a proposal, what would the affect of voting be? Obviously the intent would be to suck soft nationalist votes from other parties and in this case that would probably mean from the CPC rather than the BQ.

However, I suspect that the Libs would be handing the CPC a winning hand that the Conservatives have never had before. The Libs would make the CPC the only party which stands for traditional federalism. Ironicly, Harper would be the default choice for those who believed in the Trudeau ideal of "two people, one nation".

In my opinion, the CPC has 4 options to respond:

1) Status quo

Not recognize the nation and avoid the question.

2) Recognize it as a nation but also recognize other "nations"

If Quebec is a nation, one could argue that Newfoundland is a nation, or that the Acadians or Frano-Ontarians, Metis or possibly even Albertans are also "nations".

This would bestow "nationhood" without making Quebec unique. Without that uniqueness it would be impossible to argue that as a "nation" Quebec should be given special status.

3) Recognize Quebec as a "nation"

We would have to clarify what we mean as a "nation".

I suspect that the Liberals and Iggy will use the term "civil nation" which Iggy has written on.

This would be a tricky thing to do because some people will interpret the term differently and it could create a backlash by raising expectations beyond what you're willing to deliver. In fact, this is what I hope will happen to the Liberals.

If you open the "nationhood" door, it will turn into a slippery slope. Nationhood will then lead to demands for special status. Special status will mean opening the constitution. If you're not willing to go beyond recognition of "nationhood" then you'll wind up getting even more people upset because recognizing the "nation" but not acting on it will appear hypocitical in their eyes.

I suspect by golng through with this proposal the Liberals will not only enrage their traditional "one nation" base of support, but they will also eventually alienate the new soft-nationalist supporters that they hope to win over.

This will be not unlike what happened to Mulroney after the two failed attempts at constitutional reform; he raised expectations so high that they could never have been met and by trying to please everybody he wound up pleasing nobody.

4) Adopt a "One Nation" policy

This would turn the CPC into the ONLY national traditional federalist party; a position which the Liberals often claimed to occupy.

The question is, would this policy be enough to turn the CPC into the "natural governing party"?

In Quebec, I feel the CPC would probably gain slight support under this option. We would lose some soft nationalist vote but would gain traditional federalist vote. In fact, I could see this option as consolidating the Quebec Jewish vote under the CPC. Jewish voters tend to be wary of "nationalism" and supported Trudeau in the past because of his opposition to Quebec nationalism, expecially the extreme nationalism.

Where the most gains to be made for the CPC, I feel would be in Ontario.

Ontario voters are very pro-federalist and to the point of holding virtually no attachment to their home province. Ontario voters also tend to support the party which is seen to be the most pro-unity. For example, in the last election when it was obvious that Liberal corruption was driving up support for Quebec separatism, support for the CPC in Ontario increased.

I believe that by becoming the only traditionally federalist party, the CPC could increase its support in Ontario and possibly become the default choice of Ontario voters.

What do you all think?
CC Scott





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 151
Reputation: 15.9Reputation: 15.9
Location: Edmonton

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the "One-Nation" approach should be the way to go.

That being said, it almost appears that Ignatieff is starting to implode. After his comments on Israel the last thing he needed was to misstep again. But lo-and-behold he's doing just that in supporting the LPCQ motion that recognizes Quebec as a nation. Talking about nationhood when it comes to Quebec, even if it is that "Quebec as a nation within Canada" garbage, will end up pushing federalists away from his campaign and towards the other LPC leadership candidates.
Bleatmop





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 953
Reputation: 17.5Reputation: 17.5
votes: 10

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it'd be ideal if the Liberals took the two nation approach, for the same reasons that Cool Blue listed. Undoubtably Harper would play the Federalist card and he's an expert strategest. I'm certain that it would be come THE camaign issue that all the other parties would have to dance around.

Reading this makes me want Iggy to in the leadership race all the more.
KPK





Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 527
Reputation: 3.6Reputation: 3.6Reputation: 3.6
votes: 13
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think all conservatives should pack their bags, move west and start an independent nation of our own.
CC Scott





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 151
Reputation: 15.9Reputation: 15.9
Location: Edmonton

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KPK wrote:
I think all conservatives should pack their bags, move west and start an independent nation of our own.


Uh, why??
KPK





Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 527
Reputation: 3.6Reputation: 3.6Reputation: 3.6
votes: 13
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CC Scott wrote:
KPK wrote:
I think all conservatives should pack their bags, move west and start an independent nation of our own.


Uh, why??



Call it "Conservative Alienation" from continuous Liberal governments whose sole purpose is to pander to Quebec at the expense of other provinces. What about the Acadian nation? The Aboriginal Nations? Remember Elijah Harper & Clyde Wells? I think Western Canada could do well on it's own. Another New Zealand or Australia perhaps? Toronto downtown Liberals sicken me with their blind naive eternal devotion to Trudeau. If it weren't for him ,the Liberals would not be the natural governing party today.
biggie





Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1738
Reputation: 44Reputation: 44Reputation: 44Reputation: 44
votes: 10
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They just like the fact that the liberals like to kick around the west...

Too bad the west has grown tired of it, and now they have all the money for once ;)
palomino_pony





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 539
Reputation: 93.9Reputation: 93.9
votes: 3
Location: Lower Mainland, BC

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really hope that the Liberals go down this road. Taking this "Quebec as a nation" stance would seal their fate in any of the soft ridings, negating any gains they could hope to make in Quebec. This would also give the CPC one more issue that they would have an advantage in.

I think that this is Ignatieff's last ditch attempt to scrape out a victory in a leadership bid that he was once favoured to win, but now whose outcome looks in doubt. It kind of reminds me of Martin's "abolish the notwithstanding clause" proposal during the last election.

For all the points that Cool makes in his post about how this would help the CPC more then it would help the Liberals, I don't think the Liberals are this desperate yet to pass this policy.
KPK





Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 527
Reputation: 3.6Reputation: 3.6Reputation: 3.6
votes: 13
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So does the Swiss constitution mention anything about nations? The German,French & Italian nation within Switzerland?
biggie





Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1738
Reputation: 44Reputation: 44Reputation: 44Reputation: 44
votes: 10
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I say we make quebec recognize a nation;


CANADA.

While we're at it, lets introduce them to English, cause i'm sick of all this bilingual garbage when they refuse to take part.
McGuire





Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 369
Reputation: 20.2Reputation: 20.2
Location: Soviet Pictouwestistan

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KPK wrote:
CC Scott wrote:
KPK wrote:
I think all conservatives should pack their bags, move west and start an independent nation of our own.


Uh, why??



Call it "Conservative Alienation" from continuous Liberal governments whose sole purpose is to pander to Quebec at the expense of other provinces. What about the Acadian nation? The Aboriginal Nations? Remember Elijah Harper & Clyde Wells? I think Western Canada could do well on it's own. Another New Zealand or Australia perhaps? Toronto downtown Liberals sicken me with their blind naive eternal devotion to Trudeau. If it weren't for him ,the Liberals would not be the natural governing party today.


Send me a plane ticket & i'm there!
Cool Blue





Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 3130
Reputation: 114.9
votes: 10
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul Wells has an excellent blog posting on this topic:

http://weblogs.macleans.ca/paulwells/

Quote:
"And while the mere word 'nation' might be too much for English Canada to swallow when applied to Quebec as well as aboriginals, the recognition he is proposing is purely symbolic, and so empty that no Quebec government could accept it.

....

"But, he also told me, the Charest government 'favours' recognizing Quebec in the constitution, which is more than what the Quebec federal Liberals are offering, and in an interpretive clause, which is more than what Ignatieff is offering.

....

"So even before the federal Liberal convention tears itself apart over the offers, Quebec has already rejected them."

...

A stout refusal to believe what Michael Ignatieff says has become the central condition for supporting his candidacy for the leadership of the Liberal Party of Canada. The opposition to Ignatieff now comes exclusively from people who fear his words have meaning.


Once again, I say Wells and Coyne are the only two journalists who "get it" when it comes to national politics. All others are superficial sheep.
KPK





Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 527
Reputation: 3.6Reputation: 3.6Reputation: 3.6
votes: 13
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McGuire wrote:


Send me a plane ticket & i'm there!




Doesn't anyone find it odd that when a poll comes out on multiple issues Westerners are always of the opposite viewpoint from the East whether it be the war in Afghanistan, the gun registry etc? I think this proves that Western Canada should go on it's own. The only exception would be Vancouver - mostly due to the transplanted Torontonians that moved there. We can start a party in Alberta called "Option Cascadia" which would see the eventual joining of BC & Alberta later bringing in Sask. & Manitoba and the Northern US states.
biggie





Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1738
Reputation: 44Reputation: 44Reputation: 44Reputation: 44
votes: 10
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KPK wrote:
McGuire wrote:


Send me a plane ticket & i'm there!




Doesn't anyone find it odd that when a poll comes out on multiple issues Westerners are always of the opposite viewpoint from the East whether it be the war in Afghanistan, the gun registry etc? I think this proves that Western Canada should go on it's own. The only exception would be Vancouver - mostly due to the transplanted Torontonians that moved there. We can start a party in Alberta called "Option Cascadia" which would see the eventual joining of BC & Alberta later bringing in Sask. & Manitoba and the Northern US states.


Or we could use our oil fortunes to amass a massive army and invade the rest of the country... After which we install conservativism as a state "religion" and charge a headtax to any NDP, Liberals or Greens.

lol.

I'm not making this up...
palomino_pony





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 539
Reputation: 93.9Reputation: 93.9
votes: 3
Location: Lower Mainland, BC

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KPK wrote:
I think this proves that Western Canada should go on it's own. The only exception would be Vancouver - mostly due to the transplanted Torontonians that moved there.


I live in the Lower Mainland... Do you mean Vancouver city proper or does the exception extend to the rest of the Greater Vancouver Regional District? How about we cut a moat around the Liberal/NDP parts? I live Dawn Black's riding, so I may have to move.

Kidding aside, if this "Quebec as a nation" business amounts to special treatment for Quebec, I would not hesitate to say that next rallying cry would be "The West wants out!"
Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 1 of 1

  


 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Liberals About to Recognize Quebec as a Nation?

phpBBCopyright 2001, 2005 phpBB