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Riley W





Joined: 08 Jul 2007
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votes: 10
Location: Manitoba

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:43 pm    Post subject: Natural Death or By-Choice Death? Reply with quote

Should suicide be illegal?

Should one be charged or be put into a program if they attempt suicide?

Should assisted suicide be legal and allowed?

If your on life support do you want to be taken off if your a vegetable?

Or do you believe in natural death?

I am *not* getting into abortion here, I am getting into Terri Shivo type of situations.

I am very confused by these situations as their is a thousand shades of gray.

I have no official stance really.

I do know if I was living by a machine and was a vegetable I would want to be taken off to go home to Christ.
Ruth





Joined: 07 Nov 2006
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votes: 7

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:51 am    Post subject: Re: Natural Death or By-Choice Death? Reply with quote

westmanguy wrote:
Should suicide be illegal?

No.
You can't charge someone if they are successful, so there is no point

Quote:
Should one be charged or be put into a program if they attempt suicide?

Yes, but I don't see how you can make this law.

Quote:
Should assisted suicide be legal and allowed?

No.

Quote:
If your on life support do you want to be taken off if your a vegetable?

Yes.
Taking someone off life support does not necessarily count as assisted suicide. It depends on the circumstances. For example, just before my Opa died, he was on life support. He was taken off, but we were told by the doctors that if he hadn't passed within a certain amount of time, he had to be put back on life support so he wouldn't starve.

Quote:
Or do you believe in natural death?

Yep.

Quote:
I do know if I was living by a machine and was a vegetable I would want to be taken off to go home to Christ.

That is also my feeling.

-Ruth
FascistLibertarian





Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 1092
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votes: 14
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah i wanna be taken off if im braindead.
if someone wants to kill themselves bc gthey have a dieases that cant be cured, let em! Its their life not the govts.

seeing my granny die of lung cancer.
if i had something like that, it certainly wouldnt kill me ;)
luca





Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 46
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 2
Location: Montreal

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: Natural Death or By-Choice Death? Reply with quote

westmanguy wrote:
Should suicide be illegal?


Since I subscribe to the principle of self-ownership, suicide is a questionable choice, but one we cannot interfere with unless it infringes on our own rights or safety.

westmanguy wrote:
Should one be charged or be put into a program if they attempt suicide?


By the same principle, not charged. Attempting suicide, though, must warrant the enrolment into a counselling scheme.

westmanguy wrote:
Should assisted suicide be legal and allowed?


Again, deriving from self-ownership, euthanasia should be a right of the individual. How we ensure the choice is final, and not the result of temporary emotional swings, is another matter.

westmanguy wrote:
If your on life support do you want to be taken off if your a vegetable?


Yes. Although miracles can sometimes happen, the uncompromising pursuit of keeping someone alive by all artificial means available is not positive. It is a stress for the family, a strain on the healthcare system and not a nice sight. I'd rather be remembered alive than a motionless body with faint traces of life in it.

westmanguy wrote:
Or do you believe in natural death?


We all die at some point. Since we can't know when God precisely wants us to die (he doesn't send a reminder card) we have to accept those situations that are BOUND to result in death, and accept that outcome.

westmanguy wrote:
I do know if I was living by a machine and was a vegetable I would want to be taken off to go home to Christ.


My thoughts exactly.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
Reputation: 104
votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FascistLibertarian wrote:
yeah i wanna be taken off if im braindead.

Be careful what you wish for...

The current state of the law in Canada is pretty simple. Suicide is not illegal, nor is attempting suicide a criminal act. All of the provinces have legislation regarding suicide in their laws regarding mental health issues and forced psychological examinations. Those who attempt suicide are usually arrested and brought to a pshrink.

Assisted suicide is illegal under the Criminal Code. Period.

I'm curious, luca... Don't you find the idea of government's forcing counselling for attempted suicide offensive to the principle of self-ownership?

-Mac
luca





Joined: 05 Oct 2007
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Location: Montreal

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would generally sound as a contradiction, true.

However, someone who attempts suicide is plainly in need of help. Frequently these people are blind to the opportunities they are offered by society such as helplines, or they are too shy/desperate to consider talking to someone.

Forcing someone to be brainwashed out of suicidal thoughts is not an option. However, after trying to commit such a desperate act someone should be made to talk to a counsellor, even if it's just about the person venting his or her feelings.

If we tie the person to the counsellor's whim (i.e. you won't get out until the counsellor says you're not suicidal anymore) we will infringe on the principle of self-ownership, because we would dictate the kind of thoughts we deem suitable.

If staying silent and closed in oneself is an option (i.e. the counsellor will try get you talking about it but if you resist you'll be left to go anyway) then self-ownership is preserved.

I'd like to see the Government out of this, but there are many charities and organizations offering counselling. How would we determine which one is to take the next desperado on board?
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They should be charged, but only to cover the costs resulting from the attempt. Ambulance ride, rehab, cleanup, replacing damaged property, whatever it takes to cover those costs. You should be charged these costs regardless of whether the attempt was successful or not.

As far as suicide goes, it is your body, your life, you can do with it as you choose. There are already laws to make sure that your money goes to your dependents instead of your mistress and such. Speaking as a libertarian, even a contract that allowed someone else to kill you should be legal. As long as you have the proper capacity to contract, any contract should be legal. There was a case like this in Germany last year or the year before. These two freaky sick perverts found each other on the Internet; the one guy wanted to eat a human, the other guy wanted to be castrated and killed.

http://www.news24.com/News24/W.....03,00.html

In a full on libertarian society, these kinds of contracts would be allowed.
luca





Joined: 05 Oct 2007
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Location: Montreal

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
They should be charged, but only to cover the costs resulting from the attempt.


Absolutely agreed. I am also in favor of applying this principle to unsanctioned rescue operations (i.e. rescuing people who ski in forbidden areas or who injure themselves while doing things they shouldn't).

Just a clarifying example: one who doesn't do the regular car check-up and ends up with brakes failing and the car going off a cliff should defray the costs of rescue. He took a risk, and cooked in his pickle. Instead if regular checks are done and brakes fail the driver shouldn't be charged a penny. Taxes pay for the rescue services (I assume) so this can be considered an insurance policy provided by the government.


kwlafayette wrote:
These two freaky sick perverts found each other on the Internet; the one guy wanted to eat a human, the other guy wanted to be castrated and killed.


Eww I remember this. I find it utterly sickening but cannot fail to recognize the legitimate nature of that contract. Still, yuk!
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
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votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are going to scare off anyone thinking of investigating libertarianism... but you're right.

-Mac
gc





Joined: 23 Jun 2007
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Location: A Monochromatic World

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Natural Death or By-Choice Death? Reply with quote

westmanguy wrote:
Should suicide be illegal?

No.
Quote:
Should one be charged or be put into a program if they attempt suicide?

No. Not unless they choose to be put into a "program".
Quote:
Should assisted suicide be legal and allowed?

Yes, as long as there is consent.
FF_Canuck





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 3360
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votes: 17
Location: Southern Alberta

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty happy with the current state of legislation regarding suicide and assisted suicide.

luca wrote:
kwlafayette wrote:

They should be charged, but only to cover the costs resulting from the attempt.


Absolutely agreed. I am also in favor of applying this principle to unsanctioned rescue operations (i.e. rescuing people who ski in forbidden areas or who injure themselves while doing things they shouldn't).

Just a clarifying example: one who doesn't do the regular car check-up and ends up with brakes failing and the car going off a cliff should defray the costs of rescue.


I'm mostly in agreement here. I would be in favour of, for lack of a better term, a 'grossly stupid' clause, where one may be held liable for the taxpayer's costs of responding to and managing the consequences of an event that, in eyes of a reasonable person, was the result of grossly stupid actions or inactions on part of the 'victim'.

Regarding the OT specifically, suicide attempts and 'successes' both consume a lot more resources than a lot of people realize, even before you bring in the health care system. Not to mention that many people are 'repeat offenders'...

I'm not sure about conflicts between libertarianism and assisted suicide. I'll have to think on the matter more.
Triple_R





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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two points...

1. In my own experience in reading up on failed suicide attempts, most of them are really cries for help moreso than acts based on firm decisions to end one's life. Granted, there are freak occurances, like someone shooting a gun at their head but having the bullet just barely miss any vital point in their brain... but the sheer technical aspect of killing oneself is usually pretty easy if you truly want to die. So, if the suicide attempt failed, there's a good chance it's because the person making the attempt doesn't truly want to die, and instead is perhaps inwardly hoping that their attempt at suicide will fail and make people take notice. For such folks, I think that good counselling/programs can save their lives. I have little problem with such counselling/programs being mandatory.

2. The growing issue of euthanasia is one largely brought on by recent advancements in medical technology, and technological advancements in general. The scenario of slowly withering away in excruciating pain for months, if not years, on end was more or less impossible at one time - so too was the body staying alive through machines in spite of the mind having died. I would argue that society isn't rejecting natural death so much as our current level of technological advancement allows for artificially extending "life" (even if it's simply a body that's living with the lights turned off upstairs) which has forced a problem fairly unique to our age upon us. I think that ethically we should differentiate between... a) killing ourselves, and... b) choosing to not artificially extend our lives. The law should probably reflect such a differentiation as well.
FF_Canuck





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 3360
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votes: 17
Location: Southern Alberta

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think that ethically we should differentiate between... a) killing ourselves, and... b) choosing to not artificially extend our lives. The law should probably reflect such a differentiation as well.


The law currently does, in a certain way. As mentioned suicide is not a crime, while attempting suicide is. The law regarding medical life support varies from province to province, but AFAIK all Canadian jurisdictions recognize legally-binding Do Not Resuscitate orders (DNRs).
Sheila





Joined: 09 Feb 2008
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Location: Central Alberta

PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last night my sister and I were sitting in the den and I said to her,
'I never want to live in a vegetative state, dependent on some machine and fluids from a bottle to keep me alive. That would be no quality of life at all. If that ever happens, just pull the plug.'
So she got up, unplugged the computer, and threw out my wine.
She's such a bitch.
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