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kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
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Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peterjaworski wrote:
kwlafayette wrote:
Libertarians are more of an American phenomena. Live free or die type of philosophy. Patrick Henry and other early Americans, including the framers of the US constitution were big on liberty, all though they did not all agree on what liberty meant.


This is false. Canada's history is rife with libertarian philosophy. Up until the Pierre Elliott Trudeau re-conceptualization of Canada's identity, Canada could justifiably be called a country that cared more about liberty than the U.S.

Examples: Our founders looked to classical liberals like, especially, Montesquieu and John Locke and David Hume for inspiration.

Louis Riel's rebellions, and the Upper and Lower Canada Rebellions were rebellions for freedom.

Prime Minister Wilfrid Laurier can best be viewed as a libertarian. That label sticks to him better than any other, although there are plenty of non-libertarian policies and speeches that he approved of and gave.

The Underground Railway. Especially the Buxton settlement just outside of Windsor, is a perfect example of Canada's heritage of liberty. (Anyone here aware of the Buxton Liberty Bell? Yeah... that's a big problem)

Gun rights in Canada were much more fervently held on to here than in the U.S. until about the '60s.

And so on.

It is part of the mission of the Institute for Liberal Studies (www.liberalstudies.ca) to expose the myth of socialist Canada, and to make more available the rich, deep, and significant history of liberty in this country. Liberty is *our* heritage, even if it might also be the heritage of the U.S.
I disagree. The British Empire loyalists moved to Canada, and the libertarians stayed in the US and fought the British, it is pretty much that clear cut.
peterjaworski





Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 11

Location: Bowling Green, Ohio

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
I disagree. The British Empire loyalists moved to Canada, and the libertarians stayed in the US and fought the British, it is pretty much that clear cut.


This would be a good rejoinder if Canada was only founded by, and wholly composed of, the British. But it wasn't.
mltoryblue





Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 109
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peterjaworski wrote:
kwlafayette wrote:
I disagree. The British Empire loyalists moved to Canada, and the libertarians stayed in the US and fought the British, it is pretty much that clear cut.


This would be a good rejoinder if Canada was only founded by, and wholly composed of, the British. But it wasn't.


There were alot of Libertarian Empire loyalist who moved to Canada during the time of the American civil war. During that time is when the bulk of loyalist came to Canada, not because of their political views but because they didn't want to be involved in a brutel war with the south.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
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Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the Blogging Tories forum, peterjaworski!

-Mac
peterjaworski





Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 11

Location: Bowling Green, Ohio

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
Welcome to the Blogging Tories forum, peterjaworski!


Thanks Mac.
Mac





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Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had heard Maxime Bernier was considered libertarian and Stephen Harper of the Reform days certainly seemed of that mindset but I hadn't heard either Scott Reid or Andre Arthur described as such.

Having been raised in the Maritimes, my public school education was so thoroughly socialist, I didn't hear of libertarianism or any of such concepts. As an adult who enjoys talking politics, I learned of it but the more I read of libertarianism, the more it resonates with me on the philosophical level.

On the political level, the Libertarian Party seems to take absurd stances over almost meaningless regulations and end up looking foolish as a result. Not my cup of tea, thanks. I'm glad the new Conservative coalition includes libertarian elements. Hopefully, in the fullness of time, the party will become more right-wing and bring Canada with it!

-Mac
peterjaworski





Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 11

Location: Bowling Green, Ohio

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
I had heard Maxime Bernier was considered libertarian and Stephen Harper of the Reform days certainly seemed of that mindset but I hadn't heard either Scott Reid or Andre Arthur described as such.


Check out Andre's wiki page. It says so right there. And if wikipedia says so, it must be true. As for Scott Reid, he comes to the Liberty Summer Seminar (check out www.liberalstudies.ca), and in my conversations with him he is way too knowledgeable about libertarianism and the philosophy not to be at least very sympathetic.

Mac wrote:
On the political level, the Libertarian Party seems to take absurd stances over almost meaningless regulations and end up looking foolish as a result. Not my cup of tea, thanks. I'm glad the new Conservative coalition includes libertarian elements. Hopefully, in the fullness of time, the party will become more right-wing and bring Canada with it!


Re: LP. I used to be keen. But you're right, they're not exactly political "ept". As for the Conservative Party, it's high time we had a Conservative Liberty Caucus to pressure the Tories to be more principled and, frankly, *much* more libertarian.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
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votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

peterjaworski wrote:
Check out Andre's wiki page. It says so right there. And if wikipedia says so, it must be true. As for Scott Reid, he comes to the Liberty Summer Seminar (check out www.liberalstudies.ca), and in my conversations with him he is way too knowledgeable about libertarianism and the philosophy not to be at least very sympathetic.

I'll give both some reading. I just got home from being taxi for my kids and my bedtime approaches. The fact Reid showed up for the Seminar would seem to indicate some interest.

peterjaworski wrote:
Re: LP. I used to be keen. But you're right, they're not exactly political "ept". As for the Conservative Party, it's high time we had a Conservative Liberty Caucus to pressure the Tories to be more principled and, frankly, *much* more libertarian.

Some of the more socially conservative of the party will be reluctant to consider empowering libertarianism. As I said to gc earlier, articulating your position is essential to understanding both without and within the party.

-Mac

ps: I've been to Bowling Green to visit BG's most famous factory with a group of fellow fiberglass enthusiasts from a webforum.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know a lot about communism, it doe snot mean that I am sympathetic to that movement. Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.
Vicki





Joined: 22 Sep 2007
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Location: West Vancouver

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

... and that is why I spent four years studying Marxism: Marxist philosophy, Marxist political economy, international relations from the Marxist position, history from ... you get the drift. I started off as a right of centre PC and ended up a hard-line right of centre Conservative thanks to Karl Marx. (And not a lot of fun to debate with if you are of the left.)
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
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Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaws wrote:
Quote:
Friedrich Hayek, a libertarian, also thought the state should provide some sort of minimal welfare


Hayek is my hero! That's him in my avatar shAking hands with Reagan. Some Lefties don't think he deserved the noble prize.

I guess libertarian economics makes no sense to those who think they are smart enough to control human desires and impulses(SOCIALISTS) or seek to bend those desires to their will(COMMUNISTS).
FF_Canuck





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
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Location: Southern Alberta

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think some of the animosity and confusion surrounding libertarianism comes from people who self-identify as libertarian, but are actually what I would call 'social hedonists'. While being all for liberty with freedom in personal choices, they also advocate (perhaps unknowingly?) for freedom from the consequences of those choices. Free to use drugs, free to fornicate with reckless abandon, free to mouth off and generally act like wild primates, but at the same time, demanding free healthcare, money, childcare, education, housing, transportation ... etc. Almost like a perpetual adolescence, paid for by those more productive than themselves.

As for myself, I find myself very sympathetic with true libertarianism, but I'm not sure I can call myself Libertarian. For instance, I believe that individuals have an obligation to assist cohorts in need, but that this assistance should not be coerced by the government. Yet in regards to foreign policy, I also believe free nations have an obligation to 'export freedom', for lack of better phrasing. However, these two beliefs are inconsistent with each other, and a solution eludes me. For now, I sit on the fence.
Mac





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Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Social hedonists. I like that. As I've mentioned on previous threads, there are those who, as you say, self-identify as libertarians but know nothing of libertarianism. The "progressive" movement has a contingent who call themselves libertarians but their vision of government is authoritarian.

Exporting freedom? We need to get ours back first! I was delighted to see PM Harper proposing to change the Constitution to entrench property rights. The Opposition cooperated to vote it down but it's a nice signal to those of us who believe property rights as self-evident and fundamental.

-Mac
Bleatmop





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
Social hedonists. I like that. As I've mentioned on previous threads, there are those who, as you say, self-identify as libertarians but know nothing of libertarianism. The "progressive" movement has a contingent who call themselves libertarians but their vision of government is authoritarian.

Exporting freedom? We need to get ours back first! I was delighted to see PM Harper proposing to change the Constitution to entrench property rights. The Opposition cooperated to vote it down but it's a nice signal to those of us who believe property rights as self-evident and fundamental.

-Mac


Just one more reason why I can never vote for any of the opposition parties. I may not agree with everything in this party, but the fundamentals are sound.
KPK





Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Libertarians are very much focused on individual rights. They view government as a threat to those rights. They are opposed to banning restrictions on free speech, they believe taxation is perverse and they believe in minimalist government. I'm not sure how they differ from anarchists other than anarchists believe in no government.
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