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Zak
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 44
  
votes: 1
Location: Toronto
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 Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Where is the evidence that He doesn't exist? |
You can answer this question yourself when you prove that Santa Claus doesn't exist.
It is impossible to prove that something doesn't exist so the onus is on the believers to prove that their god exists, not on atheists to prove it doesn't.
Is bald a hair colour?
Is not collecting stamps a hobby?
If you say yes, then atheism could be a religion.
The main idea is that the absence of a belief is not a belief of absence so atheism is simply the default position of every human being until taught otherwise. |
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Kafer
Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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I don't usually respond to these topics, but a few things here have me thinking.
I was raised without religion and my children will be raised without religion until such time as they are old enough to choose for themselves.
My oldest daughter is now interested in religion, thanks to the Jehovah witnesses who have come to my door.They used to annoy the heck out of me as I have no religious beliefs and didn't want them pushing theirs on me. My daughter showed interest and I felt if she wanted to learn about it she could.
Then, just recently, she brought home an order form for a New Testament (Gideons International Canada) from school and at first I was upset, where do they get off offering this in school? that was my first thought. After talking with my daughter, she made the choice to say yes to recieve this book.
Now she wants to study all different religions. Should I stop her from doing this? As a parent it's my responcibility to educate my children, does that include ALL religions? Or just the ones I believe in or choose not to believe in?
As a religious person, as I have said I am not, do you allow your children to make their own choices after educating them or do you, for lack of a better word, expect them to believe what you do?
(sorry it's also a little off topic) |
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Atheism may not fit neatly into the definition of 'religion' but it is wrong to say that it is absolutely not a religion. It's like saying that black is not a color, it's the absence of color.
I consider religion to be the sum total of an individuals belief about God, gods, or in an atheists case no God/gods.
In regards to a complaint from an atheist inmate in the us (in 04 or 05) a court ruled that atheism should be defined as a religion and given the same entitlements that other religious organizations in the prison receive. Conversely this atheist actually wanted his beliefs defined as religion and he got it. I don't think that ruling has ever been overturned.
I'm sure atheists have varied reasons for not wanting their belief defined as a religion, I know I have my reasons for wanting it defined as such.
If atheism is not defined as a religion it's free from the restrictions imposed on other religious beliefs and by default atheism and it's cousin evolution are being taught in places where other religions cannot be.
Kafer, for what its worth I allowed my kids to study all religions, but from my Christian perspective. |
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| don muntean wrote: | | theatheistjew wrote: | God does not exist and Other Faiths are a means of Brainwashing.
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There is no evidence for God, I can't say 100% for sure he or Leprechauns don't exist. I want people to understand this who may not have realized it up until now. They've been told from a very early age that there is overwhelming evidence. Many have been told that evolution is crap (that is because of brainwashing) or that the earth is young (again, this is because of brainwashing) or that gays are sinful (again, brainwashing) or that the great flood happened and included Noah (bigtime brainwashing).
I know there is no evidence for a historical Jesus or Exodus. It took me 40 years to realize this though. Maybe one day a few here will too. |
Where is the evidence that He doesn't exist? |
Where is the evidence the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, and Leprechauns don't exist? I'm not claiming I can prove he doesn't exist, I'm stating there is no evidence he exists so why even consider his existence. Do you consider the existence of the Tooth Fairy? |
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Kafer, the beauty of separation and state is your kids have the right to decide whatever they want to believe. I also think there is nothing wrong with teaching the history of religions in class but only using secular sources.
A teacher can say the Jews believe in the Exodus (without going into much detail), but the teacher must also add that there is very little to no evidence that the Exodus actually happened.
Make sure your kid doesn't join a cult just to rebel against you:) |
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| theatheistjew wrote: | I also think there is nothing wrong with teaching the history of religions in class but only using secular sources.
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..of coarse, if I was an atheist I would want my kids taught from a secular world view too, it should always be the responsibility and right of the parent to instruct their children as they see fit. |
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| urbanmonk wrote: | Atheism may not fit neatly into the definition of 'religion' but it is wrong to say that it is absolutely not a religion. It's like saying that black is not a color, it's the absence of color.
I consider religion to be the sum total of an individuals belief about God, gods, or in an atheists case no God/gods.
In regards to a complaint from an atheist inmate in the us (in 04 or 05) a court ruled that atheism should be defined as a religion and given the same entitlements that other religious organizations in the prison receive. Conversely this atheist actually wanted his beliefs defined as religion and he got it. I don't think that ruling has ever been overturned.
I'm sure atheists have varied reasons for not wanting their belief defined as a religion, I know I have my reasons for wanting it defined as such.
If atheism is not defined as a religion it's free from the restrictions imposed on other religious beliefs and by default atheism and it's cousin evolution are being taught in places where other religions cannot be.
Kafer, for what its worth I allowed my kids to study all religions, but from my Christian perspective. |
Atheists existed long before evolution theory came into the picture. Again, evolution is fact, and it is only the wilfully ignorant who won't accept it. There has never been ONE scientific find or research that contradicts evolution. It can be done in the lab now. All you have to do is try to understand what evolution is and you'll see that there is no difference between what needs to happen for macro or micro evolution to occur. Again, if you want to remain wilfully ignorant, that is your prerogative. Again, I'm wilfully ignorant when it comes to understanding scripture...but this is because I was brought up a secular Jew, and secondly I recently became educated on the history of Judaism and Christianity, and I've found there is no evidence of the Exodus or a historical Jesus. So the scriptures are just words by man for man.
And again, belief in God has nothing to do with acceptance of evolution. Belief in the bible goes against it depending how you interpret the bible, but many theists know evolution is fact and it doesn't prevent them from believing in God.
Secondly, the atheist in prison (a rarity i might add), was looking for equal rights and the courts granted him that.
And yes, atheism is definitely associated with religion when surveys are done and religion is asked. I even think the government of Canada did one recently, and I can't remember what I said. I'm still a Jew and will be until the day I die because a Jew is a Jew by religion and/or by birthright (if their mom is a Jew), but I also can say "no religion" or "atheist" if it is on the survey...and it is usually under the religion header.
But atheism is not a religion beyond that as we have no dogma, no rituals, no nothing, we only share one thing in common: we don't believe in God. |
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Craig
Site Admin
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 4415
votes: 36
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Evolution is undeniable. The origin of humanity is still up for debate. |
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It can be done in the lab now. All you have to do is try to understand what evolution is and you'll see that there is no difference between what needs to happen for macro or micro evolution to occur. |
Natural selection/micro evolution occurs, that is not disputed. Macro evolution however does not and as far as I know has not been proven to do so. Natural selection usually weakens the species and instead of adding new DNA information it removes information.
| Quote: | | Evolution is undeniable. |
IMHO you are mistaken and TAJ is defending his hope that God does not exist. |
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Riley W
Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 857
votes: 10
Location: Manitoba
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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evolution, evolving is undeniable - true.
Evolution applied to the human species is still up to debate.
My belief is the big bang created the universe with God involved, and God personally made man, we never evolved from anything.
I can believe humans can evolve from their point of creation on, but not evolve into humans from apes.
Animals, I am okay with evolution for animals.
Humans are distinct, created in God's image, set apart from the rest of the animal kingdom.
imo at least. |
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:06 am Post subject: |
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Again, evolution of man does not prove God doesn't exist. What it does prove is God didn't zap man on earth, actually, it doesn't even prove that. Man could have been zapped here right after our closest ancestors were about to make the leap into man as we know him today. Of course, that would still go against what the bible says and it still doesn't make sense for a God to do it that way.
Science works by taking the evidence around us and it attempts to explain the evidence. Creation "science" takes what the bible says and if the evidence doesn't fit the bible, the evidence must be wrong, and hundreds of thousands of tests that show the evidence is correct must be flawed.
Creation science has a bad track record starting with the sun revolving around the earth, because the bible implies this, it took years spin the bible so that the evidence could fit the bible in an allegorical sense. When evidence is in the face of the bible, the bible has to be spun to fit the evidence. Many believers cling to the God created man as man thingy because human evolution isn't in our face, we don't witness it. Even though there have been hundreds of thousands of studies and findings that all point towards human evolution and nothing that refutes it. If man didn't evolve, it would be the other way around. There would be hundreds of thousands of studies that point towards man coming to earth at a specific time with nothing leading up this. And there would be no evidence that gave us the possibility that man may have evolved. (this is called logic)
For the truth about human evolution:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/tryit/evolution/
For those who wish to become enlightened. For those who don't, do what you want. |
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| Zak wrote: | | atheism is simply the default position of every human being until taught otherwise. |
I would heartily debate this. Rejection is not a default position, since it implies that some level of thought has been given to the problem.
You can make a better argument that apathetic agnosticism is the default position (ie: people think there is something, or at least there might be something, but they don't know what it is).
-Ruth |
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Craig
Site Admin
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 4415
votes: 36
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| westmanguy wrote: | | Evolution applied to the human species is still up to debate. |
Why would evolution not apply to humans?
The question here isn't whether or not evolution is happening. Of course it is. Every generation of humans, on average, is genetically better than the previous. We respond to environmental pressures just like every other species. When a pandemic happens and millions die, as cruel as it sounds, we become a stronger species because the people best able to defend against the disease survived.
The question isn't whether or not evolution is happening. The question is how did humans begin? |
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| westmanguy wrote: | evolution, evolving is undeniable - true.
Evolution applied to the human species is still up to debate.
My belief is the big bang created the universe with God involved, and God personally made man, we never evolved from anything.
I can believe humans can evolve from their point of creation on, but not evolve into humans from apes.
Animals, I am okay with evolution for animals.
Humans are distinct, created in God's image, set apart from the rest of the animal kingdom. |
I have asked you this before, and I still don't understand your position.
Why exactly do you believe God made the world and animals through the Big Bang and evolution, but not man?
Why do you make a distinction?
Isn't this inconsistent?
-Ruth |
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mrsocko
Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2453
votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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atheism (plural atheisms) -
Absence of belief in the existence of God or gods.
Disbelief in the existence of God or gods.
religion (plural religions)
1. A system of beliefs, including belief in the existence of at least one of the following: a human soul or spirit, a deity or higher being, or self after the death of one’s body.
2. A number of customs and rituals associated with such beliefs.
When it comes to religion, she doesn’t believe, but she loves to attend the ceremonies.
3. Anything that involves the association of people in a manner resembling a religious institution or cult.
4. Any system or institution which one engages with in order to foster a sense of meaning or relevance in relation to something greater than oneself.
I don't think it is a religion. It does not really fit the defintion except possibly part 4.
Do atheists believe that the furtherance of atheism is their ultimate purpose in life? Very few do I would think.
Judging by the arrogance of some of the atheists on this board I find it hard to believe that they would consider the cause or furtherance of atheism as being greater than themselves. Would anyone die for the cause of atheism? I doubt it. Christpher Hitchens maybe. |
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