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TorontoCon





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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:31 am    Post subject: Message to Tory *aka LAYTON! Reply with quote

Look. I want to vote conservative but I share the views of around SEVENTY PERCENT of polled Ontarians that funding faith based schools is a really really BAD idea. Why doesn't Tory LISTEN to canadians, CARE about what we WANT (or DON'T WANT for that matter) and REVERSE his position on faith based schools??

He's trying now, to put the issue on the backburner for a year (as I've read) and then have a free vote on it. I say DROP IT! You know what we want already so why even vote on it??

If Tory had the "jewels" to do the right thing here, I'd vote for him...

Polled Ontarians are saying:
1. Among all the voters, 65 per cent agreed with the statement: "Funding should not be extended because Ontario already has a major challenge making sure that our large immigrant population fits in and shares our values."

2. Overall, 42 per cent of voters agreed with the statement that "it is risky to extend funding because public money could be used by some schools to teach extremist values."

3. The poll shows Tory with backing of 37 per cent of decided voters in race for the riding of Don Valley West, well behind the 52 per cent for Liberal Kathleen Wynne. When you can't even win your own riding. Doesn't that speak VOLUMES?

Listen to the people Tory.... Listen to the people. Drop this INSANE policy immediately.

TAKE OFF YOUR ROSE-COLOURED GLASSES TALIBAN TORY.

http://www.canada.com/topics/n.....mp;k=62870


Last edited by TorontoCon on Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:15 am; edited 1 time in total
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
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Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, if I lived in Ontario, and was a Liberal who could not stand the Liberal party, I would vote for Tory. If I was a Conservative, I would be wondering who to vote for.
TorontoCon





Joined: 14 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know... I'm faced with an extremely difficult decision. McGuinty has got to be the worst premier we've seen in a long while. Just awful... but I may have to begrudgingly vote Liberal strategically.

My HOPE is that the Tories fall BADLY due to this faith based schools issue and it is never included in ANYONE's policy ever again.

Then in the next election, after Tory is ousted as party leader, some real changes can be made... Tory really dropped the ball on this one... damn.
cosmostein





Joined: 04 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tory did a poor job explaining why he put Faith based funding in the platform, and on that reasoning he should be ousted as leader.

The UN alleged that Ontario was violating human rights in 1999 and again in 2005, while we do not have to comply to the threat from the UN we as a nation normally do.

It left us with an option,

Fund em all,

or

Fund none of em,

Because of the very complex interwoven situation that the Separate Board and the Province are currently in it simply is more cost effective to comply by funding all of em,

But as a voter who couldn't give a damn one way or another, I find this is a gross over reaction by Ontario voters, something that is fair common.

The choice was simple:

A) Eliminate Catholic Funding Totally, aside from the potential legal challenges that would last decades and cost the province millions we are in a province that is 43% Catholic. Also with the Catholic Ownership of much of the property many Catholic High Schools are built on, that becomes a very sticky situation and a very expensive situation

B) Fund all Faith Based Schools, Ontario has 54,000 students in Private Schools as of 2006. Of those 54,000 students 85% of them are in Private Secular Schools, leaving 8100 kids that are in Private Faith Schools.

From a costing stance, the choice seems very simply but of course reality and politics are not often the same page.

Tory would have been better leaving the issue be, and dealing with it when he was elected as the Liberals or NDP who end up forming the government will have to do as the UN does want resolution and soon (end of 2008 if memory serves).

Tory was honest with voters, and that is a HUGE no no in Ontario.

I can assure you that by 2009 there will be some sort of Religious School Funding in place, because the Liberals will not eliminate Catholic funding and there needs to be a resolution, while it will not be called "Faith Based Funding" I can assure everyone that whichever party wins will be funding Faith Based Schools by 2009.

Bookmark this topic, the reality is in a cash strapped provinces its the most cost effective way of doing things and placating the UN. The funding is coming the question is what name or mask will it be hidden behind when it passes?
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
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Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Careful Cosmo, people who are against this do not like well reasoned arguments against their position. You are probably right though, enough people worship the UN in this country that what the UN says will eventually get done.
TorontoCon





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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A note on elimination of Catholic "funding". All Catholic schools are not going to become private institutions if this is indeed the way we go. All that will happen is the following:

Students will show up one morning and they'll be told that they are now a part of the Catholic system and Teachers will be absorbed by the public system. The amount of money that funnels into schools would remain unchanged.

The real difference will be the following enrolment years where non-catholics would be allowed to attend that particular school...

HOWEVER, I predict that many NEW PRIVATE CATHOLIC schools would pop up everywhere for parents that can afford private options that want their kids to go to a Catholic school.

And I'd be an unfortunate customer... cha ching!
cosmostein





Joined: 04 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
Careful Cosmo, people who are against this do not like well reasoned arguments against their position. You are probably right though, enough people worship the UN in this country that what the UN says will eventually get done.


What is so tragic is that you are so correct,

Its so much more interesting to make this about Muslim Schools, Secular Rights and all that jazz then it is to simply see the issue for what is really is.

Howie and Dalton were very smart to avoid this issue fully,

And what I find so Ironic is that Ontario WILL re-elect the Liberals to a Majority in a few weeks, but within two years the reason for electing the Liberals will be passed in Parliament anyway under the excuse that "The UN made us" even though we were fully aware of this at the time of the election.
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TorontoCon wrote:
A note on elimination of Catholic "funding". All Catholic schools are not going to become private institutions if this is indeed the way we go. All that will happen is the following:

Students will show up one morning and they'll be told that they are now a part of the Catholic system and Teachers will be absorbed by the public system. The amount of money that funnels into schools would remain unchanged.

The real difference will be the following enrolment years where non-catholics would be allowed to attend that particular school...

HOWEVER, I predict that many NEW PRIVATE CATHOLIC schools would pop up everywhere for parents that can afford private options that want their kids to go to a Catholic school.

And I'd be an unfortunate customer... cha ching!


How many decades will the Catholic Church argue the BNA Act and the Contsituation Act before the Provincial Government actually wins?

If the Catholic Faith made up say >20% of Ontarians then of course no problem, but the moment a provincial government attacks Catholic funding you mobilize a large chunk of the population (4.5 Million), and the cost to eliminate the board,

The cost both fiscal and political of having every Catholic High School on Catholic Diasese property carted off brick by brick and the eventual war of words you will have by trying to eliminate funding as well as the logistical nightmare of basically having to close every high school that has been built on Catholic Diasese property will pose a HUGE logistical and fiscal nightmare for the province.

This is a mess all three political parties had a hand in building, every one of the three major parties had no issue accepting property from the Diasese and as such the Church created a logistical nightmare.

McGuinty is also a Catholic who's went to Catholic School, as did his kids and his wife teaches in the Catholic System,

Do you REALLY think he is the one that will eliminate that funding?

The Liberals or NDP or whoever is in power in 2009 when this has to be address by will weigh going after 4,500,000 Catholics in Ontario or funding > 10,000 Faith based students.

The choice is simple and very clear even two years out.
crazymamma





Joined: 18 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TorontoCon wrote:
A note on elimination of Catholic "funding". All Catholic schools are not going to become private institutions if this is indeed the way we go. All that will happen is the following:

Students will show up one morning and they'll be told that they are now a part of the Catholic system and Teachers will be absorbed by the public system. The amount of money that funnels into schools would remain unchanged.

The real difference will be the following enrolment years where non-catholics would be allowed to attend that particular school...

HOWEVER, I predict that many NEW PRIVATE CATHOLIC schools would pop up everywhere for parents that can afford private options that want their kids to go to a Catholic school.

And I'd be an unfortunate customer... cha ching!


Do you honestly think that the Catholic school Board and their Parents are just going to hand over all their hard work and buildings if you do away with the funding for the Catholic school board?

In a lot of cases the land that these school have been built on has been donated by the church or the funds have been raised by the Parish. Its O.K. with you that some one just Marches in and absconds with it? Thats is not stealing in your books?

Many schools and additions have been built by the community and the local Parish. How are you going to compensate the church and parishioners? I can tell you that there are many who would rather take a bulldozer to them then hand them over to Dalton and his gang.

I would also like to point out that there is no requirement for a student to be Catholic to go to the Separate School Board. They are open to everybody regardless to religious affiliation. Priority placement is given to Catholics but it is open to all children of any faith.
Mike1984





Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 19
Reputation: 10.7
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was one of the worst ideas I have ever heard.

It's something you would expect from a liberal or new democrat.

Bringing private schools into the public sector is a socialist policy.

He wants those schools to teach the Ontario Curriculum, where evolution is believed and where teachers' unions have too much power.

One of the major reasons parents send their kids to private schools is to avoid the pubic system and for choice.

Tory himself sent his kids to private school in Toronto he should know better.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike1984 wrote:
This was one of the worst ideas I have ever heard.

It's something you would expect from a liberal or new democrat.

Bringing private schools into the public sector is a socialist policy.

He wants those schools to teach the Ontario Curriculum, where evolution is believed and where teachers' unions have too much power.

One of the major reasons parents send their kids to private schools is to avoid the pubic system and for choice.

Tory himself sent his kids to private school in Toronto he should know better.
Uh, Tory never said they had to teach the Ontario curriculum. A private school would be perfectly free to teach whatever they want, and not ask for funding. That is actually the road that a majority of private schools would take, so that they could continue to teach a superior curriculum.
Mike1984





Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 19
Reputation: 10.7
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.leadershipmatters.c.....education/

Quote:
Faith-based schools with their 53,000 kids would be invited into the public education system as long as they:

1. Teach the Ontario curriculum;

2. Hire only fully-qualified Ontario teachers; and

3. Agree to ongoing accountability (student testing, inspection).


So you can't receive funding unless you teach the socialist BS that the public system does.

We should be contracting the public system, not expanding it.
cosmostein





Joined: 04 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike1984 wrote:
http://www.leadershipmatters.ca/issues/publiceducation/

Quote:
Faith-based schools with their 53,000 kids would be invited into the public education system as long as they:

1. Teach the Ontario curriculum;

2. Hire only fully-qualified Ontario teachers; and

3. Agree to ongoing accountability (student testing, inspection).



The 53,000 is a red herring, and I don't understand why Tory continues to use it.

Those are the students currently outside the public scope, Home Schooled, Secular Private Schools and Faith Based,

The actual Faith Based under is sub 10,000
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike1984 wrote:
This was one of the worst ideas I have ever heard.

It's something you would expect from a liberal or new democrat.

Bringing private schools into the public sector is a socialist policy.

He wants those schools to teach the Ontario Curriculum, where evolution is believed and where teachers' unions have too much power.

One of the major reasons parents send their kids to private schools is to avoid the pubic system and for choice.

Tory himself sent his kids to private school in Toronto he should know better.


I myself couldn't care one way of another about how education is funded, as I tend to focus more on taxation, healthcare, transportation, economy and the other stuff that I actually will care about the day after the election when all this Faith based crap will blow over.

But the question that now one seems to be able to answer is how are Ontario's schools suppose to comply to the UN Human Rights Violation we were charged with?

This is what concerns me with the Liberals and the New Democrats

This is an issue that will have to be resolved in the next two to three years yet no one is discussing it?

One way or another.
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike1984 wrote:

So you can't receive funding unless you teach the socialist BS that the public system does.

We should be contracting the public system, not expanding it.


What bothers me is that had John Tory made Private School Tuition tax deductible for parents, as we make University and College tuition tax deductible we could have addressed the UN issue as well as benefited those who do not want to support the crumbling public system,
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