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theatheistjew





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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

urbanmonk wrote:
LOL, being an atheist zealot on the bt forum sure beats writing a blog for 6 readers eh!

I get 250-300 readers a day on my blog. Like I said, I don't think you'll learn anything here (wilfull ignorance). But I will probably change the views of some lurkers.
urbanmonk





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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"But I will probably change the views of some lurkers."


Maybe but I wouldn't count on it, too extreme and angry to be taken seriously.
...but who knows!
At least you're getting some of that attention you need tho :~)

Cheers
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

urbanmonk wrote:
Quote:
"But I will probably change the views of some lurkers."


Maybe but I wouldn't count on it, too extreme and angry to be taken seriously.
...but who knows!
At least you're getting some of that attention you need tho :~)

Cheers

I'm not angry. Frustrated that there are reality deniers who are missing out on fantastic science stories though.

People do take me seriously. Like I said, I might be a bit disruptive but I do get my point across. The trick is to leave excellent links like the PBS series you will never watch.
Riley W





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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My issue is that I strongly STRONGLY believe man was created in God's image.

I believe God created us personally. I can't believe humans evolved to this point. I CAN though believe humans can evolve from the point God created us. To adapt, etc.

Secondly, animals I don't have a problem with evolution with. Its not an issue.

I don't believe Genesis completely literally. but my problem is if God made man through the process of evolution what about the cross species between man and ape, etc. Were they not blessed and "human"?

I believe the 7 day story is correct but I don't believe we can know the units of time God used.

So I subscribe to science in the field of the age of the universe. God made all through the Big Bang process.

Basically I believe Darwin theory, but I cannot and will not apply evolution to the being of man.

C.S. Lewis was an atheist that converted to Christianity later in life.

All the atheists I have encountered in life and online seem like hardened people to me. Not particularly happy either, they all seem angry to me...

Its not a biased observance, I just notice this..

When I have an online discussion or a real life discussion on it I usually afterwards pray to God to unhardened their hearts to allow room to grow towards a loving God.

I don't feel the need to fight with atheists. I pity and feel sorry for every person that doesn't have a relationship with Jesus Christ, it has made my life so much better.

I may fear the pain of death, but not the fate of death.

I may not know the future, but I know who holds the future.

I know were supposed to bring friends and people to God because the Bible says that, but I don't attempt conversion unless the person is open to it.
theatheistjew





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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

westmanguy wrote:
My issue is that I strongly STRONGLY believe man was created in God's image.

I believe God created us personally. I can't believe humans evolved to this point. I CAN though believe humans can evolve from the point God created us. To adapt, etc.

Secondly, animals I don't have a problem with evolution with. Its not an issue.

I don't believe Genesis completely literally. but my problem is if God made man through the process of evolution what about the cross species between man and ape, etc. Were they not blessed and "human"?

I believe the 7 day story is correct but I don't believe we can know the units of time God used.

So I subscribe to science in the field of the age of the universe. God made all through the Big Bang process.

Basically I believe Darwin theory, but I cannot and will not apply evolution to the being of man.

C.S. Lewis was an atheist that converted to Christianity later in life.

All the atheists I have encountered in life and online seem like hardened people to me. Not particularly happy either, they all seem angry to me...

Its not a biased observance, I just notice this..

When I have an online discussion or a real life discussion on it I usually afterwards pray to God to unhardened their hearts to allow room to grow towards a loving God.

I don't feel the need to fight with atheists. I pity and feel sorry for every person that doesn't have a relationship with Jesus Christ, it has made my life so much better.

I may fear the pain of death, but not the fate of death.

I may not know the future, but I know who holds the future.

I know were supposed to bring friends and people to God because the Bible says that, but I don't attempt conversion unless the person is open to it.

Many theists can allow for evolution. Take Dr. Ken Miller for example. He is a Catholic and he pretty much defeated ID in Dover single handedly with his facts on evolution.
I think he believes there was a time when humans evolved into something one can call human and that is when God did the Adam and Eve thingy. Of course I disagree, but at least he doesn't deny reality.

I'm pretty happy, and I find the atheists on Raving Atheists where I also post are generally very jovial.

A lot more people become atheists. Very few go from atheist to theist. CS Lewis may have been agnostic, but big deal. So he went delusional.

Again, atheists are not hardened people. You should check out the atheist blogroll on the sidebar of my blog and you'll see that most have a great sense of humour and very down to earth.
Riley W





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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats fine.

I don't want to get into a personal debate here. I am a devout Christian, lets just have some liberal tolerance towards each other :D

I have a question though...atheists and general stances.

Their is a stereotype atheists are all Liberal (because the Right wing parties are traditionally on the side of Christianity), but your an atheist on here a Conservative site, whats your observance on this?

As an atheist, do you tolerate and possibly support the idea that the Western World was founded on Judeo-Christian philosophy, which were actually the ones that championed separation of church and state, and that its only right to keep up the tradition and heritage of things like 10 commandments in court halls, christmas trees in city hall, God stays in our anthem, etc.

I really want a clear headed atheist point of view on this.

I am fine with separation of church and state, but I full heartedly believe the USA and Canada were founded on Judeo-Christian philosophy and should continue to support the tradition and heritage of it through symbolic measures, not binding measures.

And thats where I feel the Conservative party fits in.
theatheistjew





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Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

westmanguy wrote:
Thats fine.

I don't want to get into a personal debate here. I am a devout Christian, lets just have some liberal tolerance towards each other :D

I have a question though...atheists and general stances.

Their is a stereotype atheists are all Liberal (because the Right wing parties are traditionally on the side of Christianity), but your an atheist on here a Conservative site, whats your observance on this?

As an atheist, do you tolerate and possibly support the idea that the Western World was founded on Judeo-Christian philosophy, which were actually the ones that championed separation of church and state, and that its only right to keep up the tradition and heritage of things like 10 commandments in court halls, christmas trees in city hall, God stays in our anthem, etc.

I really want a clear headed atheist point of view on this.

I am fine with separation of church and state, but I full heartedly believe the USA and Canada were founded on Judeo-Christian philosophy and should continue to support the tradition and heritage of it through symbolic measures, not binding measures.

And thats where I feel the Conservative party fits in.

*********************
I'm a Conservative supporter because I'm pro business and I really like their stance against terrorism, which is why Tory's allowing of Muslim schools to thrive upsets me. Especially when low income Muslims will most likely wind up in them if Tory wins.

Many atheists are too Liberal. I'm a social liberal. I support gay marriage, I'm pro choice though I would never choose abortion, but I do not believe the person who has less is always the victim. Most Liberals automatically think that, as they do with Israel when they call them the aggressor.

I'm against God in the public sectors. But I don't begrudge Christmas parties or people wishing Merry Christmas even in dept. stores. I think Christmas is a great holiday for families to get together.
God in the national anthem is ridiculous to me. It takes away the meaning of it for me.
The 10 commandments and prayer at city hall is just plain wrong. It doesn't just offend atheists but all other faiths.

As far as Judeo-Christian foundation goes, I just think it was the dominant religions when laws came down, and it is just coincidence that civilization grew under Christianity. It grew in China, in the middle east, etc. I don't think it had anything to do with progress or the makings of the laws we live by right now....just coincidental.

Like I said, Judeo-Christian commandments are just common sense that came with the agriculture revolution, as man settled in cities, we found it was good to make rules like you can't steal and murder, etc.
Ruth





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

westmanguy wrote:
Secondly, animals I don't have a problem with evolution with. Its not an issue.

Yeah, that I have gathered. But you seem to not understand my question.
Why do you believe in evolution for animals?

Quote:
I believe the 7 day story is correct but I don't believe we can know the units of time God used.

So, do you believe God created the world through evolution or not? I don't undertsand your answer.

Quote:
I know were supposed to bring friends and people to God because the Bible says that, but I don't attempt conversion unless the person is open to it.

You need to rethink your understanding of conversion.
You do not attempt conversion. The only person who converts is God, through the power of His Holy Spirit. Yes, we are told to go out into the world to preach, make disciples and baptize, but that does not mean that the responsibility for conversion lies with us.

--Ruth
PS:
Quote:
Many theists can allow for evolution. Take Dr. Ken Miller for example. He is a Catholic and he pretty much defeated ID in Dover single handedly with his facts on evolution.

His position is inconsistent with Scripture. Even if one argues for a day that is not literal, and creation therefore did not happen in a literal six days, we still have the problem of death.
Correct me if I am wrong, but evolution requires death, does it not? Survival of the fittest has to do with fitness for breeding, surviving one's environment and living a longer life. Death is implied in the evolutionary process. Without it, there is no reason to evolve.
This presents a problem when you try to marry the idea with the Christian world view. One of the core Christian teachings is that death entered the world as a result of sin and the fall. Death is our chief evidence of sin. Since Creation obviously took place before the fall, there was no death involved in the creative process. Death as a result of the fall is something Scripture is quite specific about, esp. in Romans. If we allow for death in the creative process, then we do not have death as a chief evidence of sin, and Romans (in fact the whole Bible) is wrong on this point. This impacts the Christian view of salvation.
theatheistjew





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ruth, evolution has to do with adopting to an environment. Survival of the fittest is an often misused term. A blind fish with a great sense of smell and hearing will do better in a cave than a fish with good eyesight, a good sense of smell and good hearing. In that case, eyesight evolved to be useless over many years while hearing and smell became more pronounced. The fish that were born that could hear and smell slightly better than the others had a better chance of survival. But we aren't talking over a couple of generation, we are talking over 10's of thousands of years.
The blind fish with great hearing and great sense of smell had an advantage not to be eaten, to be able to live long enough to mate and to be able to shelter itself and feed.
If an animal (even a human) can eat, live long enough to mate, and not have any predators, the necessity for any evolutionary changes are drastically lessened. That is why sharks haven't evolved much of late as they are the boss of the sea with plenty of food and their only predator is the land dwelling man.

Back to Ken Miller. He wrote a book on evolution and God. If you don't get your hands on it, read the reviews by scrolling down:
http://www.amazon.com/Finding-.....0060930497
Ruth





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
Ruth, evolution has to do with adopting to an environment.

Yes, I know this.
But, the only reason an animal needs to adapt is because it can't survive in the environment it is living in. Without death, there really isn't much need to adapt. Again, this presents a problem for the Creative Evolutionist. How do they resolve the issues of death as a result of sin? If anyone knows, please point me in the right direction.
To be frank, I don't put much stock in the notion of Creative Evolution. As far as I am concerned, there was either a six day creation and there is sin in the world OR the world evolved, there's no such thing as sin and we don't need salvation. You can't have it both ways.

--Ruth
theatheistjew





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ruth wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
Ruth, evolution has to do with adopting to an environment.

Yes, I know this.
But, the only reason an animal needs to adapt is because it can't survive in the environment it is living in. Without death, there really isn't much need to adapt. Again, this presents a problem for the Creative Evolutionist. How do they resolve the issues of death as a result of sin? If anyone knows, please point me in the right direction.
To be frank, I don't put much stock in the notion of Creative Evolution. As far as I am concerned, there was either a six day creation and there is sin in the world OR the world evolved, there's no such thing as sin and we don't need salvation. You can't have it both ways.

--Ruth

*****************************
I really don't get what you are saying. Did you read the comments in the link I provided.
Anyways, interesting news on evolution came out yesterday:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....073902.htm

I'm just curious Ruth, if a scientist could convince you that evolution is fact, that the earth is 4.6 billion years old, that the universe is 13.7 billion years old and that all life on earth evolved from a one celled creature, what would that do to your faith in God?
Ruth





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
I really don't get what you are saying. Did you read the comments in the link I provided.

Yes.
And I was wondering if my point was clear or not. Apparently not. Allow me to reword it as a series of points.
As outlined in Genesis:
1. God creates the world and calls it good, (ie: perfect)
2. God creates man and woman and calls them good, (ie: perfect)
3. Man and woman eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. This is the first sin. The world is now imperfect.
4. This first sin results in the beginning of the death process of Adam and Eve and the subsequent expulsion from Eden. Also, man and woman can no longer communicate directly with God.
As outlined in Romans:
5. The wages of sin is death. The sin mentioned is both
a) the sin inherited from Adam and
b) our own individual sin
6. Sin and the resulting death has affected not only man, woman and their relationships with God and each other, but it also affects the world as a whole. Paul uses the word "groaning" to describe the agony of the world.
7. So, in other words, that there is death in the world is the number one indication that there is also sin in the world.
8. Now, *IF* the world was created through evolution, then death existed BEFORE sin. This is a problem. It means that death is not the wages of sin. It is something else. We lose our chief indication that the world is fallen.
9. If the world was created through the evolutionary process, then God did not create the world perfect. It wasn't actually "good." That makes God a liar, since He did declare the world as being good when He created it. Furthermore, if the world was not created perfect, then was there actually a fall? From what? Again, without that initial perfect, we lose any indication that the world is fallen and in sin.
This is an important point SPECIFICALLY for the Christian belief. Christians view the world as lost (or dead) in sin, unable to communicate directly or have a relationship with God. The reason Christ died was to rectify this.
If the world is not in sin, then there is nothing to fix. Salvation has no purpose.

Quote:
I'm just curious Ruth, if a scientist could convince you that evolution is fact, that the earth is 4.6 billion years old, that the universe is 13.7 billion years old and that all life on earth evolved from a one celled creature, what would that do to your faith in God?

Nothing. One can argue both for the existence of a god and for evolution.
However, one cannot argue that we need to be saved, as I stated above. The definition of god would also have to be changed. This god would only be a creator. He would not be perfect, holy, or just. Such a god would therefore not be worthy of worship. One could only acknowledge its existence.
But... (and you know I have to say this, or I wouldn't be me)
evolution is not fact.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolute and incontrovertible proof of the existence of God came to me on 24 August 2007, at 7:11 AM. Anyone who wants proof that God exists should simply have a child.
FascistLibertarian





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A zealot is someone who canít change his mind, and who wonít change the subject.
Sir Winston Churchill


theatheistjew, I agree with your viewpoint pretty much (i am agnostic) but I disagree with the way your spreading your message. Your basic point, that there is no evidence to support the existence of a single all powerful God, is something I agree with. But the way you respond to criticism is basically "your stupid and wrong, listen to me".

Ruth - when he says time units, if God is all powerful he could make each day last a billion years, so if he created the earth in 7 days those 7 days could equal the billions of years the earth has been around.
Its what Clarence Darrow used to trip up William Jennings Bryan during the scopes monkey trial

And try taking a first year physical anthro class and being against human evolution......
thats tuff :P

"the lord is my sheppard"

I wonder which of the following types of groups would come up with that comparison
farmers? huntergathers? herders?

If you have some understanding of history and anthropology (neolithic rev, mesopotamia, huntergathers religion etc) its just really hard to be religious in my view.
Ruth





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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FascistLibertarian wrote:
Ruth - when he says time units, if God is all powerful he could make each day last a billion years, so if he created the earth in 7 days those 7 days could equal the billions of years the earth has been around.

I am well aware of this argument. It's a pretty shaky one, but even if it were true you would still have to deal with the issue of death and its impact on sin and salvation as I already outlined. Like I said, you either have evolution OR you have the Christian God. You don't get to have both.

Quote:
If you have some understanding of history and anthropology (neolithic rev, mesopotamia, huntergathers religion etc) its just really hard to be religious in my view.

I couldn't disagree with you more if I tried. As far as I am concerned, the more one studies history, the more one becomes convinced that there must be a Power directing it. There are simply too many "coincidences" for it to be otherwise.
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