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theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
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votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
You see, claiming that theories are fact is not the kind of thing scientists do. You just don't understand what science is. That does not make you a bad person, it just makes you like everybody else; there are some things you understand, and some you don't.

If you want lessons on the scientific method, and what science is, you can start paying me. Otherwise, I recommend you stick to the polemics/apologias, you seem to have that down. Stay away from debates, you use too many logical fallacies to be taken seriously. Your blog would probably be a better place for this kind of writing.

Just take a minute, and reflect on how emotional all your responses are. How you favor the emotional over the rational; how you call names instead of debating. How you believe in things instead of reasoning them out, and how once you believe, your faith is unshakeable. I think you will arrive at the conclusion that the human animal cannot escape religion anymore than it can escape breathing. The need to believe in something is deeply rooted in our psyche; whether you believe in God, no god, mother Earth, or science, it is all religion. No one is more enlightened than anyone else in that regard. Your only choice with regard to religion is which one to pick.

***********************************************
You are emotional too, calling me religious. I've already explained how evolution is both fact and theory. Did you not read the explanation? Or did you ignore it?

I have already made posts that humans are inclined to believe in God and the supernatural. In fact, I read a good book on the subject, The God Part Of The Brain.
There is a natural reason for this, not a supernatural reason.

I have both debated (by pasting definitions and videos) and called names (because I don't respect anyone who pretends they know science when in fact they are just hiding behind their religious beliefs).

Ice Ages are facts and theories too. We know they happened, but we don't know exactly when they occurred and what the exact environment in which they occurred.
This is how creationists dishonestly spin the word theory around.

And by stating that I have faith illustrates you need a good dictionary.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
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votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part of the reason people choose a particular religion is the self image that goes along with it. In the Atheist religion, people tend to see themselves as more cosmopolitan, more sophisticated, more rational than the people who belong to traditional religions (the opiate of the masses). They congratulate themselves on the triumph of reason over the primitive that has allowed them to escape their mental bonds. To these people, admitting that Atheism is just another belief system is an insulting idea. You see yourself as more enlightened than us rubes who believe in God. The truth is Catholics, Muslims, Jews, and Hindus all have their set of beliefs that must not be challenged; just like Atheists. When the sacred ideas, the basis of the religion, are challenged, there is a strong emotional response.

I understand why you are angry. You should understand too.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
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votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are the defining characteristics if religion?

Generally, public pronouncements of faith, that you believe are required. Attempts too convert others to your faith.

"a kind of cultural and/or linguistic framework or medium that shapes the entirety of life and thought… it is similar to an idiom that makes possible the description of realities, the formulation of beliefs, and the experiencing of inner attitudes, feelings, and sentiments."
George A. Lindbeck "Nature of Doctrine"

As you say, the need to believe is part of being human. You got it wrong though by including the in what part; there is only a need to believe in something. Atheists fulfill this need by believing that there is no God, gods, or anything supernatural.

Religious fervor creeps into a lot of areas unexpectedly.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
Part of the reason people choose a particular religion is the self image that goes along with it. In the Atheist religion, people tend to see themselves as more cosmopolitan, more sophisticated, more rational than the people who belong to traditional religions (the opiate of the masses). They congratulate themselves on the triumph of reason over the primitive that has allowed them to escape their mental bonds. To these people, admitting that Atheism is just another belief system is an insulting idea. You see yourself as more enlightened than us rubes who believe in God. The truth is Catholics, Muslims, Jews, and Hindus all have their set of beliefs that must not be challenged; just like Atheists. When the sacred ideas, the basis of the religion, are challenged, there is a strong emotional response.

I understand why you are angry. You should understand too.

Sorry, but just to clue you in, I'm an atheist because there is no evidence that God or Gods have ever existed. I am an atheist because I realize that God is a man made concept and nothing more.
Atheism has nothing to do with religion. And I'm not angry, just shaking my head at your total ignorance.

If you have evidence God exists please share it, other than that you might as well say that me not acknowledging that an invisible man lives under my bed is also a belief system.

Ridiculous.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
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votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have evidence that God does not exist please share it. I will throw you one last bone here, so that you do not commit the logical fallacy that I see coming; lack of evidence is not in itself evidence.

Religion does not always involve a deity. You talk a good line about ignorance, but I don't think you grasp the irony in what you say. You are just so sure of everything you say; so much faith.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
If you have evidence that God does not exist please share it. I will throw you one last bone here, so that you do not commit the logical fallacy that I see coming; lack of evidence is not in itself evidence.

Religion does not always involve a deity. You talk a good line about ignorance, but I don't think you grasp the irony in what you say. You are just so sure of everything you say; so much faith.

If I state that an invisible man is under my bed, is it up to me to prove the existence of the invisible man, or should you just accept the possibility that this invisible man exists, and even have the public fund my vision as well if I decide to create a religion based on the invisible man?

Lack of evidence isn't evidence. But what I am asking for is evidence.
Ruth





Joined: 07 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
... what I am asking for is evidence.

I don't think evidence *IS* what you are looking for.
For example, I could point to the universe itself and tell you that it is evidence of a Creator. The Bible does this in a ton of places. Correct me if I am wrong, but I doubt you would accept that as evidence. I could point to humanity's inborn sense of morality as evidence. However, you would view it as our evolved sensibility, not evidence of God.
What you want is incontrovertible proof, that is, you want to see God Himself.
It's like arguing red and green with someone who is colour blind. I can tell you it's red all I want, but if you believe it's green there is nothing I can do to convince you. You either have to take my word for it or correct your colour blindness.
But back to the issue at hand.
Funding religious education.
As far as I am concerned, all education should be religious... Christian to be specific (so put that in your pipe and smoke it). Our society has been brainwashed by the secular humanist mindset and we are paying the price for it.
John Tory's plan for funding religious schools is just a political ploy. As I stated on my blog, if the province has any strings attached to their funding then many schools will not bother applying for it. If funding is contingent on accepting the province's poor standard, something these parents already don't want, then private religious schools will not apply for the funding. The promise is a waste of everyone's time. Besides, Tory already made the mistake of showing up at the Gay Pride Parade, something a lot of these so-called religious loonies took notice of. A lot of us won't be voting for him because of it. Funding for religious education is not going to change that.
If Tory were serious and actually wanted to further religious education, he would allow parents to opt out of paying for the public system. Instead, he has decided to make everyone pay twice.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No Ruth, I am looking for evidence. Everything seems to have a secular answer. Gods have been made up by man. There are 3400 Gods out there. Man had to have made at least 3399 of them, so why stop there?

Morality? You mean like the "God given" morality that chimps seem to have as well?

Man got along without the bible for hundreds of thousands of years and must have behaved OK to get us here.

You want Christianity taught in school. That is a joke, not to mention insane. But at least you are honest.

Might as well move to an Islamic country if you want God everywhere.

Talk about brainwashed. You want us to bow down to a mythological figure in the classroom and probably in the House of Commons too (Yes, it is highly probable that Jesus never even existed).....put that in your pipe and smoke it.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is kind of funny reading the comments of the hardcore anti-God crowd isn't it Ruth? For one, they refuse to acknowledge that Judeo-Christian values built everything good around them; the West would not be here today if it were not for Christ. Second, they want to remake Western society, change it from the obviously successful formula that made it what it is today, to something untested and new. Early signs are the new system is an unmitigated disaster. And yet they press on. It kind of boggles the mind. More tragedy than comedy in the end though.

If the West remained Christian, what would society look like in 50 years? My bet is, anyone alive today would recognize it, and probably like it. If we continue with the secularization of Western society, my guess is that in 50 years, Canada will look more like Saudi Arabia or Iran than anything else. By then, theathiesthew probably would have converted to Islam.

Never quite understood how the hijab and attendant status of women is preferable to teaching creationism, or electing a Christian. Must be my backwardness preventing me from understanding the greater good.
urbanmonk





Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 307
Reputation: 16.8Reputation: 16.8
votes: 5

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette - I really enjoyed reading your posts :~)

`````````````````````````

"As I stated on my blog, if the province has any strings attached to their funding then many schools will not bother applying for it. If funding is contingent on accepting the province's poor standard, something these parents already don't want, then private religious schools will not apply for the funding". - Ruth

Ruth I think you are absolutely correct. Private schools do not want or need public interference.
btw, can you provide a link to your blog?
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
Reputation: 131.2
votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If we continue with the secularization of Western society, my guess is that in 50 years, Canada will look more like Saudi Arabia or Iran than anything else. By then, theathiesthew probably would have converted to Islam.


More likely we would have a society closer to what happened in Russia when they got rid of God.

Quote:
Sorry, but just to clue you in, I'm an atheist because there is no evidence that God or Gods have ever existed. I am an atheist because I realize that God is a man made concept and nothing more.


Just because you have never bothered or haven't found evidence doesn't mean none exists. The reason so many people are religious is because they have found plenty of evidence, that God exists, enough to convince them of their beliefs. Only an ignorant fool would say there is no evidence of God's existence.

I tried to share my experience of finding God on another thread and changed no-ones mind. This is an argument that is pointless


Atheists seem to think everyone is a fool but them. At least agnosticts are respectful.
Craig
Site Admin




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
There are 3400 Gods out there. Man had to have made at least 3399 of them, so why stop there?


Nope. 3400 Gods out there. Those who believe in the 3399 just have it slightly wrong. They are on the right track however. You are not on the right track.

Quote:
You mean like the "God given" morality that chimps seem to have as well?


What are getting at with this statement?

Quote:
Man got along without the bible for hundreds of thousands of years and must have behaved OK to get us here.


Depends how you define "got along". They grunted and hunted but not much else. Mankind began a period of unrivaled growth after the arrival of Christianity.

Quote:
Might as well move to an Islamic country if you want God everywhere.


I'd settle for a Christian one. But you atheists seem to be universal in your desire to destroy the Christian faith. No country is spared. So I'll fight for Canada.

Quote:
Talk about brainwashed.


Let's keep things respectful please.

Quote:
Yes, it is highly probable that Jesus never even existed


Actually, it is widely accepted by most (including non-religious historians) that Jesus DID exist. Perhaps you could educate yourself on this subject before being so highly critical of others.

Quote:
put that in your pipe and smoke it.


You say that with such bravado. But most of your argument amounts to little more than personal attacks not unlike those formulated by my six year old son.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You mean like the "God given" morality that chimps seem to have as well?



What are getting at with this statement?
******************
Morality is a subjective term. I see chimps behave in a moral (my definition) way without a bible.

Quote:
Man got along without the bible for hundreds of thousands of years and must have behaved OK to get us here.


Depends how you define "got along". They grunted and hunted but not much else. Mankind began a period of unrivaled growth after the arrival of Christianity.
*************************************
Man progressed thanks to invention and scientific discovery. Other civilizations grew alongside the Judeo-Christian ones. The growth had more to do with innovation than religious beliefs or man made morals put on paper.

Quote:
Might as well move to an Islamic country if you want God everywhere.


I'd settle for a Christian one. But you atheists seem to be universal in your desire to destroy the Christian faith. No country is spared. So I'll fight for Canada.
*************************************
I think the Christian faith is ridiculous. I have done lots of research in this area. I am not out to destroy anything though, just to enlighten. The Christian faith is getting destroyed by hypocrisy and scientific discovery.

Quote:
Talk about brainwashed.


Let's keep things respectful please.
****************************
I just used Ruth's own words. Pay attention, you are the moderator:)

Quote:
Yes, it is highly probable that Jesus never even existed


Actually, it is widely accepted by most (including non-religious historians) that Jesus DID exist. Perhaps you could educate yourself on this subject before being so highly critical of others.
*****************************
I assumed Jesus existed for 42 of my 46 years here. Then I did some heavy research. Most likely, Jesus was just an invention of Paul. There were many historians alive between 1-40 AD and not one word was mentioned about him. I can go on, I can provide links, but I don't think you'll be interested.

Quote:
put that in your pipe and smoke it.


You say that with such bravado. But most of your argument amounts to little more than personal attacks not unlike those formulated by my six year old son.[/quote]
************************************
Again, pay attention, I'm just mimicking Ruths words, but I don't see you slamming Ruth.
Why is that?
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
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votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
Quote:
If we continue with the secularization of Western society, my guess is that in 50 years, Canada will look more like Saudi Arabia or Iran than anything else. By then, theathiesthew probably would have converted to Islam.


More likely we would have a society closer to what happened in Russia when they got rid of God.

Quote:
Sorry, but just to clue you in, I'm an atheist because there is no evidence that God or Gods have ever existed. I am an atheist because I realize that God is a man made concept and nothing more.


Just because you have never bothered or haven't found evidence doesn't mean none exists. The reason so many people are religious is because they have found plenty of evidence, that God exists, enough to convince them of their beliefs. Only an ignorant fool would say there is no evidence of God's existence.

I tried to share my experience of finding God on another thread and changed no-ones mind. This is an argument that is pointless


Atheists seem to think everyone is a fool but them. At least agnosticts are respectful.

I'm an agnostic as well by definition. I can't disprove God just like I can't disprove that there is a giant invisible pink gorilla watching me type this post. But there is no evidence of God. That is a fact. Science has filled in the gaps very nicely so far, and will continue to do so.
I wish there was a God and an afterlife. But it isn't so. I was non existent prior to 1961, and when I die I will be non existent again.

People who spend time on religion are wasting their valuable time here.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More likely we would have a society closer to what happened in Russia when they got rid of God.
******************************
Actually, Sweden and Denmark are pretty much void of God, so is Canada in the public sector.
I can go out of my house any given day and not have to hear God this or God that. Most of my neighbours don't go to church either.
Society in Canada isn't driven with God at the wheel. And I intend to keep it that way. This is why I am so against Tory's education platform.
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I hope John Tory loses.

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