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Which side do you want to win?
YES
37%
 37%  [ 9 ]
NO
62%
 62%  [ 15 ]
Total Votes : 24

Author Message
cerl7011





Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 334
Reputation: 26.6Reputation: 26.6Reputation: 26.6

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:26 pm    Post subject: Ontario Electoral Reform Referendum Reply with quote

Just wanna get an idea of how people want to vote on Oct. 10th...

I'd say yes...anything is better then what we have right now...

(You don't have to be Ontarian to vote in this poll... :D )

erl
Hasdrubal





Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 1112
Reputation: 66
votes: 5
Location: Nova Scotia

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I vote yes for Ontatario independence. :lol: Opps alright wrong Referendum. :lol:

Seriously though I would vote "no" overall, I don't see any benefit towards the PR system other then direct vote of the Premier's position.
Reform





Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 49
Reputation: 19.7Reputation: 19.7
Location: Edmonton-Strathcona or Medicine Hat

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing I don't get is the Mixed Member Plurality, MMP heretofore, will create 10 or however many unaccountable members that only have to worry about themselves come election time because they have no constituents unlike the First Past the Post(FPTP heretofore).

Also the ballot for the MMP will be crazy complicated with support this party here and this canadiate here and this leader here, and the proof is in the pudding(I know liberal expression but for a lack of words) canadians don't want a crazy complicated ballot because they're already turned off come election time as it is.

What I support is a furthering of education in all areas of citizenship (judicial system, political system and history) so that canadians understand the meaning of the first past the post system or the heritage of refering to justices as My Lord and the significance of the court dress and the importance of the political practices. So that canadians understand and therefore participate in these elements.

If not make voting mandatory
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
Reputation: 131.2
votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know how MMP can work in a Parliamentary system were the 2nd party is the loyal opposition. It is their duty to critique the government. Could they be part of a coalition government or will the #1 party(in seats) always be beholden to the #3 party(NDP presumably). Now that would really suck, especially if the #1 party is Liberal.
cosmostein





Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 7510
Reputation: 300.6Reputation: 300.6
votes: 21
Location: The World

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will be voting no,
SaintNobody





Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 132
Reputation: 27.2Reputation: 27.2Reputation: 27.2

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will be voting for MMP so that every vote can count.
Cool Blue





Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 3130
Reputation: 114.9
votes: 10
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I will be voting for MMP so that every vote can count.


Every vote won't count.

A party must have 3% of the vote in order to get a seat under this MMP.

Tens of thousands of people in Ontario vote for parties that get less than 3%, meaning under MMP their vote won't count.

Because of this, I expect that a charter challenge will be launched by the fringe parties which will successfully strike down the 3% rule.

Get ready for official representation and government funding going towards the Communists, Marxist-Leninists, Christian Heritage and Natural Law parties.

Once this happens expect a further fragmentation of the votes. I predict that we will see a Franco-Ontarian party, a Sharia Law party and quite possibly a neo-nazi party form to take advantage of MMP . Keep in mind that in Germany, the only thing keeping the neo-nazi party alive is their system of MMP which grants them a measure of power and government funds.

I really don't think people understand what a pandora box MMP really is.

I also suspect that MMP will cause a split among conservatives; the PCs will split into the Harris/Common Sense/Blue Tories on one side and the Tory/Davis/Red Tories on the other.

Its possible that the Blue Tories might only run candidate on the "party slate" ballot and not local riding candidates in order not to split the riding votes. However, this will cause friction whereby conservatives would support the PC "conservative coallition" in ridings, but vote for the various right-wing factions for the MMP seats. I predict that these fictions would eventually lead to the Liberals becoming the "natural governing party" in Ontario and a permanent split in the conservative vote.

These endless minority governments lead by either the Liberals who will be backed up by the NDP and fringe parties (think of what Liberals will give them for their votes!), or the PCs (less common) who will be supported by the Blue & Red Tories and some fringe.
SaintNobody





Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 132
Reputation: 27.2Reputation: 27.2Reputation: 27.2

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A party must have 3% of the vote in order to get a seat under this MMP.


A lot more fair than it is now.

Quote:
Tens of thousands of people in Ontario vote for parties that get less than 3%, meaning under MMP their vote won't count.


I suspect that fringe parties will do better than in the past because there will be a greater incentive to vote for them.

Quote:
Once this happens expect a further fragmentation of the votes. I predict that we will see a Franco-Ontarian party, a Sharia Law party and quite possibly a neo-nazi party form to take advantage of MMP . Keep in mind that in Germany, the only thing keeping the neo-nazi party alive is their system of MMP which grants them a measure of power and government funds.


I feel like you have a problem with people voting for what they want. Right now, they don't vote for what they want. I don't know that provincial parties get funding right now. That'd be news to me.

Quote:
Its possible that the Blue Tories might only run candidate on the "party slate" ballot and not local riding candidates in order not to split the riding votes. However, this will cause friction whereby conservatives would support the PC "conservative coallition" in ridings, but vote for the various right-wing factions for the MMP seats. I predict that these fictions would eventually lead to the Liberals becoming the "natural governing party" in Ontario and a permanent split in the conservative vote.


If that were the case, they'd start working together again.

Quote:
These endless minority governments


What's wrong with a minority government? I prefer a minority government where the MPP's matter, to a government like the Chretien Liberals where it was basically a one-party state and the PMO and his inner circle got to decide everything.
Cool Blue





Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 3130
Reputation: 114.9
votes: 10
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, I guess if you like the idea of a permanent breakdown in political stability, the fracturing of voter unity and the rise of extremist political parties, then you would like MMP...

Quote:
I suspect that fringe parties will do better than in the past because there will be a greater incentive to vote for them


Exactly, Neo-nazis, anti-immigrants, french-separatists, Northern separatists, Sharia law, communists and other extremists; here we come.
Cool Blue





Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 3130
Reputation: 114.9
votes: 10
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If that were the case, they'd start working together again.


Just like we've seen federally, if they work together:

- they'll have a drop in support, especially since MMP will promote alternative fringe parties to pop up

- they might win riding seats due to the first past the post system however...

- they'd lose MMP seats due to the popular vote system

So basically there would be little to no gain for them to work together.

Quote:
What's wrong with a minority government?


You'll realize in a few years when you get sick of having elections every 6 months and the constantly changing political status-quo (who's in charge of the government today, what policies and laws apply? Oh its Tuesday, that means the coalition is beholden to the Marijuana party so the cops won't charge us, thank God its not Thursday when the Sharia party is in charge!)
Cool Blue





Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 3130
Reputation: 114.9
votes: 10
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another MMP prediction of mine:

- in 20 years Ontario will become officially bilingual under MMP

Why you ask? I believe that a Franco-Ontarian party will form who's demand will be that Ontario become officially bilingual or they will push for separation. I believe that they may eventually get 3-4 MPPs under MMP.

Eventually, the Liberals and/or the NDP will be desperate enough to hold the coalition government together that they'll promise the Franco-party increasingly stronger bilingualism policies in exhange for their support. Some in the Red Tory faction may also support them. The federal government under the Liberals will probably interfere infavour of official bilingualism as they did in New Bruinswick. This will eventually lead to official bilingualism

I predict that one of the first demands of the Franco-party will be that all municipalites with a minimum Franco-population (5-10%) will be subject to a language law where all commercial signs must be bilingual. Currently there are a number of municipalites that have adopted such a by-law while other towns are fighting it. I believe a Franco-party would try to impose these laws provincially.
SaintNobody





Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 132
Reputation: 27.2Reputation: 27.2Reputation: 27.2

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
in 20 years Ontario will become officially bilingual under MMP


Speaking of extremists.

I prefer MMP to the Liberal One-Party state. If political stability means that my vote doesn't count, I'll take minority governments and a vote every two years.
stageleft





Joined: 20 Apr 2007
Posts: 9
Reputation: 17.1Reputation: 17.1

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's the next logical step isn't it? At this point we have people elected who pretend to be accountable to their constituents but who are told when and how to vote by the party, and they do that or find themselves given a swift lick out of caucus by the party boot.

This just moves everything into the open and people who are accountable only to the party won't have to hide their real allegiances anymore.
SaintNobody





Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 132
Reputation: 27.2Reputation: 27.2Reputation: 27.2

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a very good point.
mtamisfit





Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 16
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stageleft wrote:
It's the next logical step isn't it? At this point we have people elected who pretend to be accountable to their constituents but who are told when and how to vote by the party, and they do that or find themselves given a swift lick out of caucus by the party boot.


Forgetting the fact that those members have to answer to their constituents come election time.

Regardless of what the reasons for it, members are held accountable for their decisions in the house under FPTP. By their constituents. At election time.
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Ontario Electoral Reform Referendum

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